RotWK Unofficial 202

Can we change the point system, stupid how clans / players can just win the league from last couple days, and its having adverse effects on activity.

I don't think so.

Whops! meant to be in BFME2.

Actually we are considering making it a bit harder to stay in the top spots, namely by raising the requirements to be a "power" clan/warrior. Nothing's been decided yet though.

nahh its more like in beginning you get 10 poits for a win and at the end u get like 10x more points... the differance should be less

would get rid of the " dont cw at the start of the month" mentally and would make for a full month of activity

However the worry here is that at the end of the month, some clans are ahead a lot and others lose motivation to catch up because they can't get as many points. Can probably tweak this too though to make it slightly less favorable to end of the month, as it truly is slightly ridiculous at the moment.

point system atm is ridicilous. first 3 weeks dont even matter. its all about the last week. this month the exception ofc, since no one is playing.

Actually since W (intensification period variable) starts at .5 at the beginning of the month and scales to 1 by the end, the first week is half as important as the last week. As such the first two weeks together are more important than the last week, meaning if one clan plays for the first two weeks and others play just the last week, the clan that plays the first two weeks wins.

By the way, did you know that the more times you play a clan in a given day, the fewer points you get? It's the "O" variable. If you play a clan twice the second game is worth just .9x as much as the first game. After ten games you're only getting .1x points. This is why it's best to host first, and why the first games of the day count for more - so the European players in your clan are more important than the American players. Very weird as we've been using this system for years that nobody's noticed or cared...

Unfortunately I can't tweak either W or O without ditching the ELO system entirely, would be nice if the options were there but they're not. Instead I have to customize a separate "CW" point system which is tricky because I'm as likely as not to make things worse at first. Literally the only things we can change while still using ELO are noobie protection (why you get very few points for beating new clans), the power win ranges and multiplier (you get 3x points atm for beating a top 10 clan or top 25 warrior), and the K value (which let's me make all the numbers larger or smaller but is otherwise totally pointless - currently set to 100 so if I felt the point values were too big to read, I could set it to 50 and we'd all have half as many points at the end of the next month).

This post has been edited by Forlong: Jul 31 2009, 01:45 AM

bump

or could there be some kind of half-month award for whoever is in the top positions after 15 days of cw??

What we need in all honesty first, is activity, then a point system change.

As I've said many times I have no control over this. CW is a very very bad site and we're stuck to deal with its flaws; the only reason it's successful for RotWK is because it is integrated into the game. Which of course makes up for all of those flaws many times over but still leaves us in a situation like this.

But Forlong, you do know the people that can change this and you could try persuading them to change it. If there are enough people who are in favor of this, then it could be changed. It was changed for BFME2 in November 2006, so it's definitely technically possible to change it.

Wow, I never realized how bad it really was. Is that how it's always been, the point system?

This has been discussed to death in bfme section with each new "generation" of players, and also a bit in bfme2 that I've seen. The fact is that cw admins only have..is it 3 systems to choose from? None of which are exactly good. The best one is the one that's active now pretty much. I've gone through trial months and what not of the other systems and they just fail. The other alternative is the custom point system which would require a tad bit of mathematical genius to create a perfect system, good luck with that of course. You're probably best off either accepting current system and making the best of it or hiring Einstein to form a new one

Well there are four basic systems. The original CW system which places much greater emphasis on 2v2s and the end of the month (but, in this system, that emphasis derives from how many points the losers have. in inactive times like now it would probably make the end of the month much less important, in active times it would probably mean you would get no points from playing new/bad clans at the end of the month). We're using a modified ELO system now, which would be perfect if only I had a bit of control over it. By default games on the first day of the month are worth exactly half what they are on the last day, and I'd like that difference to be lessened but there's nothing I can do about it (you guys know the CW globals as well as I do ).

I tried modifying the original CW system (comparatively lots of flexibility) to be more like ELO and primarily to reduce emphasis on the end of the month, but it simply didn't work the way it said it would. I used the provided formulas to manually calculate the points that players should be receiving for their games and it was very different from what they were actually receiving. So we're not going that route again. (This was why people were complaining about getting 0 points for their wins a couple months back.)

The only other options are Westwood, where you lose the same amount of points as your opponent wins (based on skill difference), or a simple gain X points for winning lose Y points. WW has the disadvantage of totally destroying the league's basis on activity and gainX/loseY eliminates the emphasis on player skill level that would make the best clans WAY better and the worst clans WAY worse.

So we stick with what we have knowing that the alternatives are all way worse.

And really, the K multiplier goes from .5 to 1 over the course of the month. I know it's a big change from day 1 to day 31 but is it really that bad? The last week of play is worth more or less the first two weeks, but you can't win on that alone as the third week is still there. Lowering K would make it much harder for there to be upsets at the end of the month which is why it's as high as it is. Keeps things exciting to the end. Yes a slightly lower value would be better for us but I really don't think it's horrible as it is now.

Unless that doesn't work the way it says it does too .

This post has been edited by Forlong: Nov 22 2009, 16:04 PM

the thing is with the points system; it would actually work alright if there was like 300 active warriors and 50-70 or so clans with games taking on average 5 minutes so you could spam like 3000 per month or w/e but in rotwk we dont get that lol! it would be impossible.

ideally there could be some kind of post-match points equalizer based upon the next 2 or 3 results each player has in cw, but this would be far too hard to achieve balance here.

anyway
If anyone's up for creating a new or slightly modifying the existing points distribution for games played at different times in the month, i can probably have a go at the maths - or at least have a look at things.
To me it seems that the problem is with players gaining far too many points for games won at the end of the month so it is easy to jump up the ladder right from the bottom of it, and still end up with the same rank as you would if you'd played right from the start of the month.
But one thing is for certain is that we would have to identify and agree on the key problems that arise with the current points system and then try to tweak them.

edit: Or is it even worth it? are people happy enough with the current points system? Or could there be some kind of points recognition for doing well in cw at the start of the month, eg an extra 100,200,300 points (or more even?) for warriors ranked 3rd,2nd,1st respectively on the 10th day of the month?? and then again on the 20th day??

This post has been edited by thepickuptruck: Nov 23 2009, 17:12 PM

An idea. Thoughts?

well i thought it would be a good incentive for activity in early month, and it'd be easily carried out too - maybe open a new topic with a poll forlong?

OK I've asked the CW admins for, among other things, more flexibility with the ELO point system, specifically the ability to set K to start at a higher value. I'm eagerly anticipating a response sometime within the next year, if ever.