Men of War

Increasingly, I have been kicked out of games for using dynamite with scouts/from tanks. It seems that a large part of the players cant stand losing a tank to a lone infantryman...

I personally love the big boom and its not like its easy to sneak one in there with a decent player.
I can remotly understand that it might piss off ppl in a tanks only game as the lack of inf support makes it impossible to properly protect your tanks against it. But in battlezones or ctf?

Has anyone noticed the same or can you please tell me why this tool is so unwelcome?

NO TNT game = noob game.
TANK ONLY game = noob game.

The problem lies in the way a scout works, TNT itself isn't the problem. It's the scout using it and in tank only games obviously a tankcrew that is as visible as a scout in a regular game.

Scouts are damaging the gameplay enormously, especially with the current field of view. A totally overpowered arcade unit in a realistic game.

Don't expect this to be the case in the expansion.

Scouts are easy to defend against, they aren't overpowered at all. Having infantry in the spotting role to cover your lines thwarts most attempts to get scouts back there. Yeah they're somewhat unrealistic, but there's plenty of unrealistic stuff in the game:

1.) Direct control artillery and auto-fire mortars. These are HUGELY damaging to "realistic" gameplay, as artillery usually took several minutes to call in, and had to be adjusted until on target.
2.) Tanks having major damage repaired in a few mintues with field-repair kits.
3.) Suicidal light vehicle rushes.
4.) Tanks bulldozing buildings without throwing a track, crushing it's hull, or becoming bogged-down/buried.
5.) "Magic" binoculars and sniper scopes that reveal everything.

The game has many elements of realism in it, but it's not "realistic". The only thing that's really bogus about the Scout is the ability to give him heavy equipment like a bazooka/flamethrower and still have him retain his speediness and stealth.

Tanks generally didn't throw tracks when driving through houses, though many larger tanks did have to be careful of if they had a basement!

Thing with scouts is that they require too much defense/countermeasures to stop 1 lone man. On large maps this can be quite difficult. You can only have so many officers/snipers around in hopes of finding a unit you may or may not know is even on the field.

Things like barbed wire and AP mines also help but the cost and effort just as a means of prevention means the person using a scout already had a win in the psychological battle as you used time/resources for preventive use.

In a way Scout is op as a terror weapon.

Really a scout can be stopped by one spread SMG squad spread out over your zone of control. Put them in in bushes and on hold fire, use them as a line of spotters. The SMGers in cover will see the scout before the scout can see them, and once you locate the unit you can usually snuff it out pretty quickly.

This post has been edited by LogisticEarth: Nov 16 2009, 01:34 AM

Actually, scout can see other infantry hiding in bushes just before the infantry can see the scout.

I hear that point very very often.

The question is though, when a scout can be countered that easily, what is the need for it other than ruining the game for beginners? Why would anyone want players to get paranoid and place smgs on hold fire in every single bush, just to counter this technically useless unit? Does it help gameplay when you have to watch your kingtiger which can shoot 2 screens wide every half second in the hope a crazy ass ninja scout didn't kill your 20 men with a sniper, flamer or mgun and is already placing a dynamite next to it?
It's an important element to cover your tanks with infantry, but it's not a great gameplay to have 2/3 of your combat force sitting stupidly in bushes on hold fire waiting for the next scout or bazooka guy to cross.


And there will be never a game that is realistic unless some real life dictators "play" war. The word "game" is 100% indicating that something isn't realistic.

None the less MoW is clearly aiming for a target group that enjoys realism but doesn't want to fall asleep in front of the next amazing war simulator that turns out to be as realistic and enjoyable as an excel sheet. (though I love excel)
Thus when I talk about realistic, I compare it to other games not to real-life.

However the most points you list up there are addressed in the expansion.

This post has been edited by DMS.Instinct: Nov 16 2009, 16:21 PM

Coupe of points here:
1.) I did not say the scout is useless. I said it is very powerful, but also very vunerable.
2.) I also did not advocate "putting SMGs in hold fire in every bush". All you have to do is to form a rudimentary recon screen through your sector of the map. This usually takes one squad of SMGers or less. Together with an officer or sniper, that means you're dedicating at most, about 20% of your forces to recon on a Company or Battalion sized game. This is not unreasonable, and far from two thirds of your force. It's also not only for anti-scout activies, but for general recon of ALL enemy forces. A proper recon screen intended for general line-of-sight on generic units should inherently work against scouts.

Scouts are great at infiltration, but a competent player can twart the easy use of them with a simple infantry recon screen. Likewise, a competent player can also break that infantry screen temporarily and exploit it with a scout. But that usually takes some other units brought in, and micromanagement of the scout itself, and it can still be killed by some quickly responding infantry or light vehicle. Meanwhile, if there's any other action going on in your sector, you're stuck dicking around with trying to infiltrate the scout. This means the scout is hard to use, but once you get it into position, it can be very powerful. Risk should be rewarded.


Like I said though, there are a few things that could be improved in the unit. They shouldn't be able to use bazookas, flamethrowers, Panzerfausts, MGs, etc. without losing thier stealth and speed bonus. Also, thier super-skill with thier silenced pistols is a bit much. The one-shot kills happen way too frequently at range. And, if you still think it's too powerful, maybe up the cost a little. It's only 12 points, and I never sweat losing a scout. Perhaps they should be more like 20.

This post has been edited by LogisticEarth: Nov 16 2009, 17:36 PM

Risk rewarding up to a certain level is equal to deciding the winner by throwing a coin. Risk should be rewarded by saving resources for a special unit, by flanking maneuvers but not by a unit that may or may not blow up a huge tank depending more or less of plain luck (avoiding enemy units by coincidence, AI turning the head in a wrong direction, FoV detection, player busy somewhere else), or by uber micromanagement skills.

The question in the end is, what valuable does the scout add to both sides of the game?
Is it fun to throw baby nukes at your opponent? Sure is! But I doubt it's fun for the other guy.
Is it rewarding to take out a kingtiger? Sure is, but killing a scout is just like... oh when does the next one come...

If 1 single unit is completely dominating the unit management and gameplay of a game, than something went entirely wrong. Why do I need to adapt my whole gaming strategy to one unit that is available almost all the time. If I have to adapt to a super heavy tank, it's fine because i had 3/4 of the game of which i could play in different ways. But a scout is... simply annoying, even if I win the game I had no fun fighting scouts. Similar to fighting British in another RTS (of which i forgot the name), you can beat them, but you have no fun doing so.
Gaming should be about fun in the end though.


I would say instead of doing all those tweaks, why not using a sniper or regular soldier right away. They can do all of what a scout can do, just don't run around like rabbit with a chili up in his butt and prevent players from going totally paranoia.


How many units are actively fighting in vanilla MoW? (Scouts are only a part of this problem.)

You've said it will be addressed in an expansion, but why would I buy that when there is an apparent (not real) lack of support? This last patch has been in limbo for so long that it's getting pretty annoying. And I know it's not really up to your company, but it still reflects on you in people's opinions of the game and company. Indecision is one of the most annoying things: I had a roommate that was deciding to either stay or move out. I wouldn't have been upset with either decision, but it took him so long to make that it started getting irritating. Moral of the story: we'd like a final say on whether the patch will be officially released or not.

It will, but not this year, most likely during Russian Orthodox Christmas in New Year. That's all I know.

Also, understand that it's Best Way who is responsible for patching Men of War. If Digitalmindsoft was overseeing the patching and support for Men of War as a whole, we probably would have seen the full patch out by now.

The expansion which is currently under development by Digitalmindsoft has nothing to do with Best Ways ability to patch the game regularly. From the sheer frequency of patches that I and other exclusive testers have seen I expect this support to be better for the expansion.

I am in agreement with you though, it's embarassing that theis patch has been in "Beta" for so long and steam users as well as other people are still running on old versions, completely oblivious that most people are running a newer patch. These are the same people that complain about being unable to find a lot of people playing. That said, yes, hopefully the patch will be out sometime in the near future.

As for the issue on hand, while I enjoy scouts and do not personally find them to be unbalancing for gameplay, I have still been able to pull off similar tricks with snipers and other infantry. What it does mean that I will still be playing some vanilla MoW after the expansion is out, if only to enjoy the antics and enjoyment that a well-used scout can provide.

I wouldnt lose any sleep if scouts were removed from the game. I personally dont use them as I dont feel they fit into the concept of the game, however if other people want to its their choice.

The thing I do find annoying is that even though I always place an SMG unit either side of my stationary tanks I have still lost one or two to this tactic.

On the same note I try not to use King Tigers, IS-3's, Pershings etc.

When I want to play with silly units I load up COH.

I think the final patch will be released at the same time as the expansion.
Write my words.

This post has been edited by IIIYURYIII: Nov 17 2009, 18:42 PM

The problem is that without scouts, heavy tank based defenses are much greater. A KT on the defense is more or less immune to artillery, and with a sufficiently straight front line, it is very difficult to flank. You pretty much have to rely on the defender here to make some sort of mistake. The current system balances for this by making players that neglect their infantry screen in favour of the heavier tanks risk infantry infiltration.

When my own tanks have been annihilated by a bunch of KTs, I want to be able to do something to punish his determination to let his tanks just sit there and wait for the timer to run out. Being able to disrupt the supremacy of the big tank keeps the game interesting, and keeps him on his toes. Having that KT there being able to kill my tanks without me being able to hurt him is no fun for me either. I've never seen scouts dominate a match in the way the superheavies do.

This post has been edited by FhnuZoag: Nov 18 2009, 18:13 PM

Agreeable, vanilla has massive problem in terms of heavy tanks. The problem is not the "invulnerability" of a Kingtiger, but the affordability of one. Something that can't be changed with a few tweaks but requires major rework.
Thus this is something which is done in the expansion and with the increase of the rarity of heavy tanks in general, a scout could cause way to much damage for little effort necessary.

^ I think he's still sore from losing his Panther to a Sniper.

well ive said more than my fair share on patches and things,

but scouts dont bother me really, i very very rareley use them and the amount of times scouts have 'got' me is not worth a mention, and thats not because ive got some super anti scout tactic!!!

i just dont see many players over using them!!!



i would not like therm to be removed as they are a valid unit, especially if your opponent has a fantastic defense lime built!!!