CNC Zero Hour

Ok noobs. See below the table of % winrate that i came up with. This is first draft. Please highlight anything that looks odd and we can work together to make it the perfect table. Please think long and hard before you mention something, take into account demo bikes and other imba things that should be used to the max. This table is based on:

TD NO CARS
Both players super pros
No major mistakes in game
Random balance is ON

Matchup % win rate
SW vs Air 5
Nuke vs Air 5
USA vs Air 10
Laser vs Air 10
China vs Air 10
Nuke vs Laser 10
China vs Tox 10
China vs Stealth 10
China vs Demo 10
China vs GLA 10
Nuke vs Inf 10
Nuke vs USA 10
Tank vs Inf 10
China vs Laser 15
China vs USA 15
Nuke vs SW 15
Tank vs Tox 20
Tank vs Demo 20
Inf vs Tox 25
Tank vs Air 25
Tank vs USA 25
Tank vs Laser 25
Tank vs GLA 30
China vs Nuke 30
SW vs Tox 35
Tank vs Nuke 35
Nuke vs Demo 35
Inf vs Stealth 35
Inf vs Demo 35
Inf vs GLA 40
China vs Tank 40
GLA vs Demo 40
SW vs GLA 40
SW vs Demo 40
SW vs Stealth 40
Inf vs Air 40
China vs Inf 40
Demo vs Air 40
Nuke vs Tox 40
Nuke vs GLA 40
Inf vs Laser 40
Tank vs SW 40
SW vs Inf 45
SW vs Laser 45
SW vs China 45
Tox vs Demo 45
GLA vs Laser 45
GLA vs Tox 45
GLA vs Air 45
Stealth vs Demo 45
Stealth vs Tox 50
Tank vs Stealth 50
GLA vs USA 50
Tox vs Air 50
Demo vs Laser 50
Stealth vs Laser 50
GLA vs Stealth 50
USA vs Inf 50
Tox vs Laser 50
Demo vs USA 50
Stealth vs USA 50
Tox vs USA 50
USA vs SW 50
USA vs Laser 50
Air vs Stealth 50
Stealth vs Nuke 50
USA vs USA 50
Laser vs Laser 50
Air vs Air 50
SW vs SW 50
China vs China 50
Inf vs Inf 50
Tank vs Tank 50
Nuke vs Nuke 50
GLA vs GLA 50
Demo vs Demo 50
Stealth vs Stealth50
Tox vs Tox 50
Nuke vs Stealth 50
Stealth vs Air 50
Laser vs USA 50
SW vs USA 50
USA vs Tox 50
USA vs Stealth 50
USA vs Demo 50
Laser vs Tox 50
Inf vs USA 50
Stealth vs GLA 50
Laser vs Stealth 50
Laser vs Demo 50
Air vs Tox 50
USA vs GLA 50
Stealth vs Tank 50
Tox vs Stealth 50
Demo vs Stealth 55
Air vs GLA 55
Tox vs GLA 55
Laser vs GLA 55
Demo vs Tox 55
China vs SW 55
Laser vs SW 55
Inf vs SW 55
SW vs Tank 60
Laser vs Inf 60
GLA vs Nuke 60
Tox vs Nuke 60
Air vs Demo 60
GLA vs SW 60
Stealth vs SW 60
Inf vs China 60
Air vs Inf 60
Demo vs SW 60
Demo vs GLA 60
Tank vs China 60
GLA vs Inf 60
Demo vs Inf 65
Stealth vs Inf 65
Demo vs Nuke 65
Nuke vs Tank 65
Tox vs SW 65
Nuke vs China 70
GLA vs Tank 70
Air vs Tank 75
Laser vs Tank 75
USA vs Tank 75
Tox vs Inf 75
Demo vs Tank 80
Tox vs Tank 80
Sw vs Nuke 85
USA vs China 85
Laser vs China 85
Inf vs Tank 90
USA vs Nuke 90
Inf vs Nuke 90
GLA vs China 90
Demo vs China 90
Stealth vs China 90
Tox vs China 90
Air vs China 90
Laser vs Nuke 90
Air vs Laser 90
Air vs USA 90
Air vs Nuke 95
Air vs SW 95


Related links:
Matchup %WinRate Table, Full statistics
MU points
new updated MU tables for future MU tournament

This post has been edited by xezon: Nov 29 2019, 09:46 AM

Nice. Can you raise Laser vs Air 1 a bit? I think cheaper avengers give a bit of an edge over USA vs Air.

china vs nuke 20 lol

I'd rather have china on TD.

If a player makes no mistakes then the better army should always win.

swg vs air 1% win chance is ridiculous. you would have to win 99 games with air vs swg for him to lose 1. Simply doesnt happen.swg will win like 5% of the times

demo vs air 50%?

nuke vs usa 5%? this means 19 wins for usa vs 1 win for nuke. Nuke will win more.

My estimation is way more realistic and based on actual gameplay (thousands of games vs size)

This post has been edited by RaGe^: Nov 25 2014, 18:03 PM

I agree. 1% chance is too low. However we do not have to see % as total value. It can be a range of difficulty from multiplier X, so I do not think we have to judge total scale, just relative scale of entire struct.

tank-stealth 50 ?_? I thought stealth has the edge

also stealth - inf 50

Problem is, all lists like this are based on experiences. And all of them are slightly different.

adjusted to 60-40. Nuke's overlord/ecm/gat combo is indestructible for china.



wrong. different game decision and build orders play a big part yet these wouldn't be classed as mistake. Kinda like rock/paper/scissors.



adjusted the 1%'s

nuke vs usa adjusted. USA no eco with expert micro is near unbeatable. and if you play normal, it's also near unbeatable.



I think stealth/tank is pretty balanced yes. Tank owns early game - stealth has no answer. Yet stealth has buggies and buses later.

stealth / inf - stealth owns early game, inf owns later. maybe it could sway in stealths favour but quite close.





TO THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE 1%.

I guess you never played vs a combat chinook then? I've adjusted to 95 - 5 anyway.




Rage - I found errors in your table immediately. And did you even list all the matchups?

Air vs Laser 95 --> 90
Tank vs USA 35 --> 30
Tank vs Laser 35 --> 30
Nuke vs Inf 5 --> 10
GLA vs Tank 70 --> 75
Tox vs Inf 60 --> 70
GLA/Demo vs Stealth 50 --> 45
Laser/USA vs China 90 --> 85

Good work overall, other value I can just admit to. Try to avoid to mention matchups vice versa like USA vs Tank and Tank vs USA that just produces more work for you! 5% steps are enough, even 10% would work as everyone has a slight different opinion or just don't want to admit just his favorite army runs over another one. Your overview could help to make the ladder more interesting. Winning is one point, but to get the same points for a Tox vs Stealth win is not okay compared to a Tox vs China.

Also important is to have armies revealed in load screen and no cars!

ReLaX

Air vs Laser 95 --> 90 - you not heard of combat Chinook? wanna play 100 games? I'll make combat Chinook everytime. See how many you can win. 95 stays.

Tank vs USA 35 --> 30 - adjusted.

Tank vs Laser 35 --> 30 - adjusted.

Nuke vs Inf 5 --> 10 - adjusted.

GLA vs Tank 70 --> 75 - no sorry, 70 stays.

Tox vs Inf 60 --> 70 - heard of helix? 60 stays.

GLA/Demo vs Stealth 50 --> 45 - are you saying gla and demo are weaker than stealth lol? Demo is best gla due to ambush, demo bikes and super powered scud storm. these remain.

Laser/USA vs China 90 --> 85 - adjusted.

lol some of these are so far off from reality.

tank being favoured in tank vs usaf, yeh guess removing the cars must've changed this matchup .

china vs tank, vchina wins 3.5 out of 10 on average? .

demo vs air is also hugely in favour of air, especially without cars.

tox vs nuke only 55% hahaha

not sure if ive ever lost inf vs any non inf china . it's a myth that vchina does okay against it because there are bad inf players who for some reason lose full outposts to migs.

sw vs stealth and sw vs gla can't be equal, it's not like you need scorpion tanks against usa.

nuke is also favoured a lot more than 60% vs tank. disagree with like 10 matchups atleast.

I also disagree with a lot of estimations. Like all GLAs against air at about 45-50%. If Air knows what to do it is nearly unwinnable for any GLA and never equal.

I won't explain the other disagreements since there's no point in that.

And what's it made for?

stealthes is way better than those rates,also you make gla equals usa and if they both are super pros the gla will be always positive,also laser,usa both have a better chance vs air,nuke will win like 30% vs usa,laser.china vs tox,stealth is way harder than it vs gla,demo.

Rather than postulating, you could just tabulate these basic summary statistics from many time series observations over the past years!

this is a very hard list to make seeing different players are better at different match ups. u can't really even say ''at the pro level,'' because i know certain experts suck at certain match ups that should be easy wins. for an example size's inf isn't the best and i've seen him lose inf vs chinas and inf vs usa match ups that should be a piece of cake. Also players like excal who hardly ever lose v china vs tank when it should be in tank's favour for the most part

incredibly hard list to get correct.. good luck with it

Thanks for the adjustments.


No reason to be a bitch about Dominator's effort. Dominator can you please look into spaldings points and make adjustments if necessary?