Dawn of War 2

...discuss...



I have reached TS 32 in 1vs1 meanwhile and when I face an SM I pray it's not the Apothecary.
When it's a Apo of TS30+ I really have no chance from the first second: no matter what I do. I tried a lot now, before I made this topic.

His healing aura + abilites are so much freaking scaling the whole SM race so much up and bring them over the top:
For me it's a kind of a designflaw - I can't help myself.

*designflaw = HP-monster units that can tank already and then a healer must screw the balance in any kind....



This patch was really a pure SM patch.








Just some significant things I spotted ( and consider them alarming ) from my experience, as said TS32 currently:

-scouts kill close to the half of a squad (banshees)
with a well placed shotgun ability shot.
and they have knocked the squad down too... further big advantage for SM.
this favors any unit shooting/meleeing the melee squad then.
only retreat possible and reinforcements are very costy.

-everythings is soo powerful in synergy with scouts and APO. ASM just own so much with APO. Also Tacs. Everything. You can't do much wrong when playing APO.

This post has been edited by Harry Russ: Nov 19 2009, 19:08 PM

apo is a bitch, but thats it. EvSM is pretty balanced, map dependant tho.

Is it the APO that is out of sync? Possibly. The best suggestion I have heard to adjust him to "fairness" is to make the heal ability an over time, rather than instant and over time.

The best thing to do is focus on the APO, force retreat or kill the sucker.

This post has been edited by kokake22: Nov 19 2009, 19:23 PM

when played above TS30 people THEY do not let you come close to the APO, he in the back, as supposed for healers.
Or if you try to come close you are pretty much screwed trying it.
you cannot focus him with ranged when he's in the back. only chance is meleeing him, but that's also a problem, because his army focuss fires your melee to death. especially and as I said in the OP, the scouts pretty much screw a hald of banshes .... so there's nothing more to say.
I try shuri, or double shuri, but that doesn't help because of ASM + APO wtfpwn and scouts infiltration just counter too....
rangers are nerfed ( from 125% to .... ? )

so suggestion?


Chokolata, what do you do against APO ? which BO ? can you provide some nice replays again? I am very helpless atm.


Against FC / TM it's going also not that easy anymore, because people understood how to play now. and that SM is not always supposed to be played as how they want them to be played. So a lot of SM play very well withing the possibilities the SM race now - which is a lot.
WEll, APO is sooo painful in TS32+ , I just dropped to 28 again because there are so many APOs outthere =/

eldar vs apo is a much harder matchup this patch, with shotguns absolutely raping banshees, and rangers being unable to kill any heavy armor models before it receives a heal. As warlock, get merciless witchblade/bubble and you will be a menace to the apo. As other heroes you may struggle.

BO I'd recommend is starting gu -> shees -> gu -> ranger. Hold the line with your guardian squads behind energy shields, keep banshees in the back to deal with ASMs or tacs that charge your gu's. Use your rangers to pick off shotgun scouts and once you force them off the field it may be safe to use your banshees.

Buff eldar pl0x. Lulz!!!11!. Eldar UP. Nerf sp4ce muhreens naow!

No need to nerf SM, just the apoth

100% agree that something must be done to Apoth.
-nerf healing and the wargear

...and for this guy:

Keep your fanboy box shut, while others try to have constructive discussion of a widely acknowledged balance problem.

Best regards,
Yet another SM player

I'm not saying apoth doesn't need a slight nerf, but space marines are complete crap at the moment. Now, the part that gets me is the fact that these Eldar players finally have to work for a win and so they start bitching like the world is over. Just because they can't spam rangers anymore and get an easy win against space marines doesn't mean space marines need a huge nerf. In short, stop whining, space marines have been shit on repeatedly by eldar and once they finally come up with a just as bad counter, you run to the forums and cry.

A constructive discussion? Hah, you're circle jerking whilst thinking about 1.8 rangers and crying on eachother's shoulders, sounds constructive.

Get over it fanboys, your race won't always be #1, in fact, 1.8 is one of the few times in the meta game that eldar have actually been the top faction. 1.9 didn't change that much, it simply gave you guys an excuse when you play poorly and lose.

i think that some of the suggestions here are a little bit strong-handed, presumably borne of frustration which is fair enough.

I'm an apoth player, and I would be really dissapointed if a big fat nerf landed at the apoth's feet again, after all lets not forget how many times the apoth has been nerfed before.

The best suggestion I have heard is a range nerf on the heal which would make it more troublesome for the apoth to stay behind his meatshield, or at the very least make it more difficult for him to run to an exposed distant squad saving them in the nick of time.

Alternatively, a less potent heal that recharges quicker and costs less energy might make all the difference. It would allow smaller boosts to units engaged in combat but still enable the apoth to heal up his units after a heavy battle.

Maybe a heal over time change would be good too but id certainly prefer small steps that dont require the apoth to be sacrificed on the altar of appeasing those that whine loudest. Certainly I would expect any more significant nerfs to also come with a less significant buff to ease the pain, I mean, without a decent heal, the apoth isn't going to be half the use he is currently.

The armour of the apothecarian in my opinion is not worth the cost unless you are playing with allies who can also benefit from its effect. I usually get the decreased heal time armour as focused ranged healing seems far more useful in a 1v1 than blobbing up.

Sarcasm detector fail.
Fix apo, buff army

Vs FC and TM i usually go:
-1 shee 2 gu 1 sp [starting gu, shee, gu, sp]

sometimes

-2 shee 2 gu , if he doesnt have alot of scouts

Vs Apo:
-2 shee 1 gu 1 ranger [ shee ranger shee]

or

-1 shee 1 gu 1 ranger 1 sp , tho this one is a bit harder to manage, works well tho.


Yes apo is a bitch if you dont cause him losses early game. SM are really strong now. Tho i admit, APO needs a bit toning down, FC/TM a but scaling up to bring all the heroes to the same level.
I would love it if TM had a melee weapon choice and the FC had a ranged one. Would make em both much better rounded.

Don't rush banshees into scout mass?

Stop bitching about SM's Apo, seriously the army has enough nerfs to set it back.

Besides, you can get 1.8 rangers by using abilities like Crackshot, Doom, Guide, or through the use of direct damage abilities like say, destructor. So anyone who whines saying rangers cannot kill heavy armor units anymore obviously does not remember the numerous ways you can buff or assist rangers in killing heavy armor units, or they just do not want to go through the effort of micro.

However, when it comes to the apothecary he is often used as a load balancer.

Tac damage is fairly meh, their vaunted HP is not all that much anymore, and are overpriced, in order for them to deal the damage they should be capable of, they need to be kept in the battle, the apoth allows this. As the heal enables the tac squad to keep fighting and not retreat.

The apoth enables the otherwise overpriced and cruddy ASM to be able to even do their job, once more because of the heal, it enables them to survive to escape from the melee without a complete squad wipe.

Every SM player can attest to how vulnerable, yet key scouts are, they die at an angry glare but are needed to be a crutch for the tacs against melee, the only thing that keeps them on the field for a few more seconds is the apothecary.

Lets not also forget devestators, they get torn apart, they need that heal to survive, and they need the knockdown from rites to even escape from melee without loosing the entire squad due to how SLOW they are.

So the apothecary is used, and is seen OP, because he single handedly has to keep the SM army competative in a fight. If he is nerfed badly, and the SM army not buffed to compensate, then it will just be throwing SM down the shitter and make it into the "pro" race as only pros will be able to win with them in 1v1.

Didn't know this board also offered comic relief.

Range change and cooldown is not the main issue, is the insta healing. U want nerf to things that are not so problematic, but the things that matter which is his ability to instaheal a lot of HP seems not to bother you. How convenient.

And armor of the apohtecarion is NEVER a bad investment.

He doesnt need to be overnerfed but those heals needs to be reworked.

Er..Explosive Shot doesn't cause damage....

KNob shotgun blast does, I'm not sure about scout shotguns. I haven't played as SM in a while.

Then stop complaining about how SM "are complete crap at the moment"?

The Scout shotgun blast does negligible damage, but during the 3 seconds or so of knockback/suppression, your entire army can easily focus the Banshee squad to death. Even attacking with only the Shotgun Scout squad does decent damage.

Apoth is OP. Scale him down a bit and we won't have to discuss SM balance with two standards.