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[Contest] Cochon du Lait (1v1)

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# 1CptBanana Mar 30 2008, 23:55 PM
Updated for ToV (Jan 28, 2010)
Cochon du Lait (1v1) Normandy, France 1944

IPB Image
(click for larger image)NEW TACTICAL MAP!!!! V3 (Apr.19.08)

Attached File 2p_cochon_du_lait_TOV.zip
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Number of downloads: 332
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Download links updated Jan 28 2010, Loading screen fixed for ToV)

VP = 3
Muni = 72 (+5)x4 (+10)x2 (+16)x2
Fuel = 40 (+5)x4 (+10)x2
Strat = 5

EDITED (4.19.08)

Version 3.0 Change Log:
-Both Fuel Points were moved slightly outward. (see screen shots)
-Fortifications(light and heavy cover) were added to the supply dump near the VP and the +16 Muni in the SE corner.(see screen shot)
-Light cover in the form of bushes and trees was added in several places.
-The bunker in the NW corner has it's health adjusted, it is now 40% full health.
-Some objects were adjusted for pathing issues.
-(2) holes were added to the stone walls in the graveyard. (see screen shot)
-Some sector layouts were adjusted slightly.
-Several areas received added art (splats and splines)

EDITED (4.5.08)

Version 2.0 Change Log:
- Both top right and bottom left Strategic sectors were widened to touch the (+10)Munitions point on either side. Now it is much easier for players to gain resources from either side of the map and not feel stuck with one side over the other.
-The actual capture points in the same Strategic sectors were move closer to the middle to make them easier to cut off. The other (3) Strategic capture points were moved slightly to balance the new change.
-(2) shot blocking hedges were added in the North and South so that the the most northern house in the middle and the southern most house in the middle, could only fire on one of the outside Strategic capture points.
-Pathing issues were fixed in the graveyard and near the bunker and trench. Most objects on the map were also adjusted to take up as few "pathing squares" as possible.
-Light and heavy cover was added to several areas.

Questions: (Please answer the follow questions if you have tested the new version, if you want tongue.gif )
1. If you could change anything else about the sector or resource layout what would it be?
2. If you could add or remove a hedge where would it be and why?
3. Do you feel one starting area has an advantage over the other other?

Thanks to everyone that helped test that old ver. All your input really helped!


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Version 1.0 screenz
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Version 3.0 Updated Screenz!

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This post has been edited by CptBanana: Jan 28 2010, 22:28 PM

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# 2FBX Mar 31 2008, 01:04 AM
Definitely an interesting map where strategic points play a big part. Didn't see anything obvious on the skirmish I played other than some very easily beaten AI.

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# 3OnkelSam Mar 31 2008, 06:32 AM
Hey man =)

I only opened it in worldbuilder so far to see the most obvious things. It looks like a very well designed map. You defenitely payed attention to guidelines every mapper should watch at (only few tiles, many splats and splines etc.). Good job! The sector layout looks promising as well, although i had no chance to test it yet.

Some design-problems though, but they should be easy to solve.

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I dunno if it was intended to make the ground in front of the bunker impassable, but i think its not a good thing. If it was intended, then you have to add some objects that make the impassability obvious to the user.
In general i am not sure if it is a good thing to have a bunker at a position with that high strategic value, since there is a VP and a +16 ammo point. I would suggest to replace it with a "weaker" building or even just destroy it so that the bunker is not able to be garrisoned. But these are just my thoughts.

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I think this area will be a pathing nightmare for vehicles. First important thing to change is to optimize the placement of objects. They have to be placed in a way so that they block a minimum count of chunks. Those gravestones only need 1 for example. This will increase the amount of pathable space. In addition i would suggest to arrange the gravestones in blocks of maybe 6. This way you create bigger pathes between those blocks that vehicles can use.

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There are areas like this, that are very open. They provide no cover at a very big area. You should add some more stuff that creates cover, even if its only bushes or scrubs. That way you give battles in those areas a bigger tactical value.



Never the less, good map in my oppinion =)

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# 4CptBanana Mar 31 2008, 11:20 AM
Thanks for the input Sam, Will look into those issues this evening.

I did set the bunker to 60% health so it should go down fast, but maybe a little more nerfage is necessary.

Thanks agian!

This post has been edited by CptBanana: Mar 31 2008, 11:23 AM

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# 5OnkelSam Mar 31 2008, 21:36 PM
Hey man, i have played a few games against a m8 on your map now. I think its quite ballanced within the US vs Wehr matchup.

Brits have an advantage though imo. The corners provide many safe resources and they can digg in on the +10 fuel quite easily. Then concentrate on getting a position in the middle and from there its very hard to come back for the axis.

I'll attach the 3 replays for your analysis. the first brit game was a bit strange, cause my m8 tryed a very unconventional strat on me =) but the second one should give you a further insight. I am very rusty in playing and we both played it for the first time, so forgive some strange things and many idle units on my site tongue.gif Still i think it gives better help than games against AI, which is why i post them.


Attached File(s)
Attached File test3_brits_-_wehr.rec
Size: 252.16k
Number of downloads: 105
Player Name Side Team
OnkelSamOF 1
SBR0NaldDumsfeld 2
Attached File test_1_us_vs_wehr.rec
Size: 241.44k
Number of downloads: 145
Player Name Side Team
OnkelSamOF 1
SBR0NaldDumsfeld 2
Attached File test2_brits_-_wehr.rec
Size: 125.26k
Number of downloads: 145
Player Name Side Team
OnkelSamOF 1
SBR0NaldDumsfeld 2

Posts: 4,541

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 6CptBanana Mar 31 2008, 21:57 PM
ZOMG! what a map maker gold mine! I'm downloading Now!

The Fuel played like my base is way to the center, but if well defended i can see a problem. What do you think, Make that fuel sector a littler smaller? I want players to move there but they should pay a price for it.

Can't wait to watch. Thanks!

EDIT: (after review):

Ya. that one little "tongue" makes a good spot to set up shop on the fuel. Maybe the fuel in the corner, +10 muni in the middle, and then the +16 muni?(just that group of 3 sectors in each corner.) Then you would have to move the 2nd truck way out if you wanted the +16.

This post has been edited by CptBanana: Mar 31 2008, 23:54 PM

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# 7CptBanana Apr 2 2008, 02:58 AM
I did a little work on the bunker and graveyard. The bunker is currently set to 60% health, probably going to take it down to 40%. I'm not uploading a new ver. for awhile until i can finish anything else and more ppl can test the current state. Would like some input/replays on the sector layout. thnks

This post has been edited by CptBanana: Apr 3 2008, 12:40 PM


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# 8JamesRaynor Apr 3 2008, 21:58 PM
Hello captain Banana,
i've just tested your map on a IA game. That was fun. the map is clean an well desing. I am not a balance expert so I can tell you about that. I do like how are the SP. Maybe for brits this map be difficul because of the long range of the map.
Goog luck for Relic Map contest.

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# 9CptBanana Apr 4 2008, 01:15 AM
Thanks James! I'm toying with some new sector layouts in each corner, and have added some cover in some spots. (after watching Sam's replays.) SP wise, WM needs a boost. They mainly make 1/2 tracks and have a tail gate party in their base.

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# 10Flamebird Apr 4 2008, 11:49 AM
I've only tested the map against AI by now, but I'll try to give some feedback anyway.

I like the sector layout, it's easy to cut off your opponent and that's good. But I'm not sure about the Southern SP which lies on the edge of the center. I'm not sure because of my AI games, but it will probably be too easy for the north to camp on the middle VP and prevent the south from recapping its cut off point. The distance is just too small, maybe move it a little to the south. Right now it's closer to the middle than the north VP, should be equal.

Another thing are the 2 +5 fuel points near the bases. They are nearly uncappable for your opponent, so you will always have an income of 15 fuel per minute even if you have no map control. I know it's the same on Semois and Beaux, but I don't know if it's that cool... post-13661-1143531603.gif

Got an image for you: http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7166/relic00032vt6.jpg

My jeep can't drive through the hole in the wall, although it's big enough. Made me wonder.

I think it's a great map, well designed and fun to play. Just needs some small fixes. thum.gif

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# 11CptBanana Apr 4 2008, 12:31 PM
That is one of the reasons i thought the (2) +5 fuels were needed. Once either side takes the middle, they should be able to attack either strat pt., leave their's sort of open while going after their opponent's. Being cut off with only +10 fuel coming in was pretty tuff. I've been finding that once the Brits move out that all those +5s are easily taken.

Thanks for the input Flamebird! I will check out that hole in the wall. nice vet on that jeep smile.gif

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# 12Flamebird Apr 4 2008, 13:18 PM
Yeah, well, good argumentation. But I think that the distance to the middle SP should be the same for north and south cut off point anyway. wink.gif

(The jeep got vet2 later in that game, but well, it was against AI. wacko.gif)

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# 13CptBanana Apr 4 2008, 13:24 PM
I'll check that distance and see what i can do for the next ver. I'm not married to the sector layout, just need some more testing to see what works. Thanks again man!

This post has been edited by CptBanana: Apr 4 2008, 13:30 PM

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# 14sdiddy Apr 4 2008, 14:19 PM
hey man - pretty sweet map. i like the strat points that cut off the left and right sides of the map...forces peeps to really commit in one direction for the attack and to respond quickly/forcefully to an attack on one's "half" - makes for plenty of attack/counterattack

i play against a real 'campy' brit mate and like the fact that he cant camp in the middle with a mortar emplacement and his hq truck...or when he did i literally circled him from behind [schrekked grens] while keeping him occupied on the 'front' with a few pios, long range mortar and bike.

i too am impressed to see a vetted jeep...not sure if i've ever seen that. begs the question: how much micro does one need to do to get a 2nd lvl jeep??? bowdown.gif

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# 15CptBanana Apr 4 2008, 14:31 PM
Gotta replay sdiddy? I'd love to see it. I don't care if it's pro or not, every little bit helps!

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# 16sdiddy Apr 4 2008, 17:28 PM
dude - here u go. my mate is a super noob and he only played cuz i promised not to rush him so there is a lot of sitting around. and he only charges from one direction. not sure if this helps at all - he never understood the sp/resource territory issue. if i get a better reply will post it.

cheers.


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# 17AfTeRShoCk Apr 4 2008, 18:39 PM
Another replay:
I presume you don't understand all the dutch language, so a brief overview of what I think about the map:

Zomg it's big was my first reaction.
Zomg I have to take the left side and bottom has to take the right side because the map is not equal.
How to get from left to right? The middle. I'll send my units to middle.
What happened was that Zodiac made a mistake, and from there on I could cut him off and that was the end of that. There's not really much you can do as soon as you're cut off from there because there are no hedges that accommodate flanking very well and good heavy cover from which you can take most assaults.
Now, perhaps if the early game is a bit more equal, eg, not a fast cut off, then the map may be fine as is, but I don't know because I haven't played such a map yet.
Overall the map did look like there was plenty of space to flank and ways to get from one place to another though, so kudos. Once again though, the map really forces you to take one side, I don't know if that was your intent but that may hinder gameplay (first game so I don't know).


Attached File(s)
Attached File zodiac76cochondulait.rec
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Aftershock 2

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# 18CptBanana Apr 4 2008, 19:30 PM
I do know what you mean Shock, on a few matches i played i felt the same. I think i may have a fix that could work. smile.gif gunna watch now thanks!

This post has been edited by CptBanana: Apr 4 2008, 19:30 PM

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# 19Goret Apr 4 2008, 19:33 PM
Very interestin map. Lots of buildings and cover.

I just played it once as axis. My first impression was that the middle dominates the game because of the mutiple cut off you can do from there.

My oponent thought that the houses were the problem. In my opinion this is not the case. Neither that holding the middle is so important.
I think you can have very nice fights in the middle.

But to be completely honest, and based on the first single game i've played, it's the 2 strategic points (1)south east and (2)north west of the middle sp that are the problem.

If those 2 were gone and the sectors around redesigned accordingly it would more play like langres or ango. where you can cut someone off from one side but in order to cut him off from the other you actually have to hold the side wich is another story.

As the map is designed now, because of the very long sectors surrounding the 2 "islands" you can cutt your oponent off by holding your sp next to your base (1) and the one next to his (2) which isn't that difficult once you have the middle.

I know this would be a major redisign and it's based on a single game. I'm sure you know better than i do how you intended it.
The other option would be to set the sp in a way that losing the middle wouldn't result in losing both sides due to a cut off.

To give an example in my replay. The left side was cut off for my oponent as i was holding his sp and that is ok. But the right side was cut off for him too just because i was holding the middle and the sp next to my base. If you see what i mean....

Anyway that is the impression i got. Hope i can test it out more.

Other than that. very nice map. I love it.

This post has been edited by Goret: Apr 4 2008, 19:42 PM


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# 20CptBanana Apr 4 2008, 19:42 PM
This is what I was thinking, any thoughts?



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