We discussed many changes, some suggestion are good, some bad and will not balance ZH. Some of them are just silly and will make more a mod than a patch. -- Plz don't post any new lists here, discuss the given changes plz --
There are really good suggestion in this forums, which will really make ZH more balanced than it is right now. I want u to discuss here and to work out a propor list, which is small an doesn't hurt build orders so much. Lets talk about some changes and find out if they are usefull or just a-good-to-have-thing. I want particular motivate following people to discuss (maybe I add some more if while discussing ): AgmLauncher, Sm34g0l, Murder, ^General This guys are overall objective - that is what is needed to set up a propor list of changes. I am normally a Random-player (see sig) and I want to have all 12 armies in the game - not less. And yes guys this is my last post about changes to 1.05 - no killing rampage needed .
Okay, here the line I went :
My 1st question on ZH was ( from CCG to ZH) : Why the hell are some armies hard underplayed, some hard overplayed & overpowered ? There must be a solid reason for this behaviour. 2nd : I thought about maps which are usefull to get a good impression over ZH. I think TD for 1on1 and FE for 2on2 are good enough. There are more 2on2-maps which are very good. Then I want to have a overview over all costs, buildtimes and healthpoints. Here is the exel-list ! Then I made a small discussion here and wanted to know what winchance in % each army has. Most votings seemed to be nearly mines - so I wrote down the winchanges on average. The table isn't completed yet - if we make a good list for the cahnges I will complete it. Table is for the overview what army is well balanced overall (lategames acpects etc.) and which is not. Of course you can see there how hard a army is under- or overpowered. Result was that SW and vanChina are not strong enough. Toxin and Airforce are the most overpowered armies in the game, stealth needs a smaller nerf. Based on this results I made a small list, what we can or should do. Note that this list is a collection of ideas and that it isn't finished yet. Remember : I want to discuss and change what needs to be changed here. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here is collection of changes :
USA all : - Range of Pathfinders reduced from 100% to 70% They need 3 shots to kill a hero now. - Change Humvee-Damage-Type to Gattling - Damage-Type from TOW-Missiles from EXPLOSION to infantry_missile - Humvees ~ 250% more vulnarable to radiation (nuke rad.) - Chinook-armour vs. JET-Missiles slightly better (2 shots > 1 Chinook)
AF : - Carpet bomber and spectre no longer contribute to gaining additional gen points - Spectre cool down increased by 1:00 - Reduse PDL of KR - Reduce the damage to buildings (KR) - Comanche countermeasure armor effectiveness against SMALL_ARMS reduced from 38% to 25%
SW : - Decreace prize of Humvee from 850$ to 800$. - Decreace prize of Ambu from 700$ to 600$. - Commanche from horrible 1800$ to 1600$ - Power outcoming powerplant (no upgrade) from 5 to 6 - Decreace AAs Fuel-Bomb-Detonation-Weapon PrimaryDamage again from 900 to 500 and the PrimaryDamageRadius from 70 to 50.
All China : - Upgrade called Chain-Gun from 45s to 35s - Upgrade_ChinaNuclearTank from 2000$ to 1000$ - Upgrade_ChinaUraniumShells from 2500$ to 1500$ - Weapons to type Gattling : Gattling-Tank-Gun-Air & Minigunner-Air-Gun
VanChina : - TC-Prize decreased from 1400$ to 1300$ - LO from 800$ to 700$, buildtime from 15s to 13s - Decrease overlord-cost from 2000$ to 1900$ - Gatt from 800 to 750$ - Move Nuclear Tanks and Uranium Shells upgrade from Nuke Silo to Propaganda Center
Nuke : - BM-SpeedDamaged von 45 auf 35 - Overlord-SpeedDamaged von 40 auf 30
GLA all : - BB-speed from 70/50 to 65/50 - Switch/change radar scan upgrade in the Black Market with the Gamma/Beta upgrade in palace
Marauder : - Decrease DelayBetweenShots from MarauderTankGunUpgradeTwo from 750ms to 950ms - Reduce marauders attack-range from 170 to 160 QuadCannon : - Change damage type to a non-structure(-owning) destroying type means buildings and tank armor vulnerability to the SMALL_ARMS damage type from 25% to 18%
Stealth : - Tunnel with upgrade 200$
Tox : - Scorpion from 650$ to 700 $ - Decrease Tunnel-damage do tanks.(--> Flamer survives here) - Now 4 Tox-Terrorists are needed for one WF - Toxin-Shells from Marauder will appear after Gamma-Upgrade.
Will be updated if we discussed sth. out ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what do you mean, what is maybe wrong, what I have forgotten here.
Plz discuss, R4v3n .
This post has been edited by R4v3n: May 18 2006, 19:31 PM
Gat range of ccg? How much time pro wil be forced to say that :
GAT ARE NOT THE COUNTER OF HUMVEE! If you make overpowered gat , that's gg for usa and that's the happy free win time back for chinoob. I don't know why i see nerf about usa All top china can AT LEAST have same chance to win chance vs ANY top usa (if usa P E R F E C T M I C R O!!!!), so WTF ?
And if SnD is done - China will not be able to kill the HVs with chainguns if USA plays good.
Juju stay objective here, plz !
I dont want a super usa i'm a fair player. This time i don't understand you, Why the hell you want to mod gatling vs humvee ? GAT are not the humvee counter , what is the point? why ? give me a good reason?
Um why do gatts need their range increased with an upgrade? Not like it will be useful in 1v1 and it will just make Tank Gen Gattspam much stronger in team games (which isn't needed imo). They are fine the way they are.
Maybe upgrade 10s faster.....45s is too high, maybe no change.
Where did I said that Gatts are the counter to HV's ? Nowhere ! Counters as nuke are after the patch in earlygame more migs and bm's, vanChina has a even better chance and Tanks stand at the same point.
This post has been edited by R4v3n: Oct 2 2005, 17:37 PM
I would simply stop playing Zero Hour if Gatts got a range boost of any kind from ANYTHING, be it an upgrade, be it after a prop center, or even if you need to build a Nuke silo then spend $10,000 on an upgrade that takes 20 minutes to research! It will make them overpowered and it's stupid to do so.
In all honesty I dont like many of those changes save for a few. The one's I have NOT commented on are the ones that I agree with. SW : - Decreace prize of Humvee from 850$ to 750$. Then humvees become to spammable. I would rather SW's play style remain as unique as possible. If her humvees are too cheap, then she'll be the Humvee general just like everyone else is. Make the Ambulance only cost $600. Her speciality is logistics and support, and an ambulance is a support vehicle. It makes sense not only from a design intent standpoint, but it allows her to get the CRUCIAL early game humvee/ambulance combo assembled. But from here on out humvees wont be spammable. It's that FIRST humvee/ambulance combo that makes or breaks the game.
- Commanche from horrible 1800$ to 1600$ Is this really a necessary change? I agree that 1800 is "too expensive", but what will this accomplish?
- Decreace AA’s Fuel-Bomb-Detonation-Weapon PrimaryDamage again from 900 to 700 and the PrimaryDamageRadius from 70 to 60. In all honesty, I REALLY like the idea of an EMP bomb rather than a FAB explosion. #1, it's consistent with her EMP-based weaponry #2, it's not overpowered because it doesnt actually destroy anything #3, balancing it is easy, all you have to do is adjust the time it takes for units to come back online rather than fiddling with range AND damage (obviously the normal bomb weapon will remain so the Aurora can be used against buildings) #4, it requires skill to use since you have to use it conjunction with another unit
All China : - Power up Upgrade called Chain-Gun. Don't power it up, make it more accessible. It's a POWERFUL upgrade, but no one bothers getting it. If you make it more powerful, and people start to get it, then it's simply overpowered.
VanChina : - Reduce built-time from BM, Dragontank and Gatt from 10s to 9s What will this solve? All it does is encourage spam - TC-Prize decreased from 1400$ to 1300$ Maybe... I dont see the point of this really. Would only really affect balance against USA and honestly, given the power of BN migs and $300 Tank Hunters, V.China is actually quite potent against USA. Considering now that Humvee's will be nerfed this might not be necessary. - Gattling-Tank and Battlemaster from 800$ to 700$ - Decrease overlord-cost from 2000$ to 1800$ This is Tank General's domain. The $100 discount on vehicles is what makes Tank UNIQUE from V.China.
Nuke : - BM-SpeedDamaged von 45 auf 35 With the role nuke radiation damage plays in giving Nuke Gen a boost against Humvees, BMs should not be nerfed. They'll be necessary to give Nuke a chance against USA.
GLA all: QuadCannon : - Change damage type to a non-structure(-owning) destroying type This will hurt Stealth general too much I think. It IS insane that quads do so much damage against buildings though. Perhaps making buildings and tanks only 18% vulnerable to SMALL_ARMS as opposed to 25% vulnerable. Stealth : - Tunnel with upgrade 300$ In the other thread I meant a $300 discount from V.GLA's stealth upgrade of $500, meaning $200. So $800 + $200 = $1000 stealthed tunnel.
Tox : - Decrease Ttunnel-damage do tanks. Toxin tunnel is fine, toxin REBEL needs a nerf. Toxin rebel ambush is too strong. However another solution is to just reduce the number of rebels that come from the ambush. - Tox-Busses ? The VERY best solution to this is to switch the radar scan upgrade in the Black Market with the Gamma/Beta upgrade that's in the Palace. Now GLA has a feasible mid game counter to comanche spam, and Gamma is far harder to access. It wont be as easy as teching up to a Palace anymore, you'll need a Palace AND a Black Market to get Gamma. Also the RPGs should not have stinger site tracking.
*Note*, the radar/gamma&beta upgrade switch applies to ALL GLAs!. Both gamma AND beta should be moved to the black market to provide easier access to the radar scan.
All top china can AT LEAST have same chance to win chance vs ANY top usa (if usa P E R F E C T M I C R O!!!!), so WTF ?
I dont agree about the chances u describe here. I think 2day china is underpowered vs gla and usa. I actually go with my noobish gla, and win vs usa when i was losing with tank. Tox owns nuke EZ. and lazer is very strong vs tank. how is it that china with 4 supplies and at least 1 oil cant beat ezily usa with only 2 supllies ?
Everything AMG said. As a stealth player mostly, I wouldn't mind the 200 buck increase in tunnels. That said, quad nerf with tunnel nerf better be offset by Vee and Kraptor nerfs!
I don't see anything to balance mdvees vs GLA here. Do you guys think that mdvees are balanced with GLA? I seem to get owned by mdvees with GLA an awful lot.
Tox : - Decrease Ttunnel-damage do tanks. Toxin tunnel is fine, toxin REBEL needs a nerf. Toxin rebel ambush is too strong. However another solution is to just reduce the number of rebels that come from the ambush. - Tox-Busses ? The VERY best solution to this is to switch the radar scan upgrade in the Black Market with the Gamma/Beta upgrade that's in the Palace. Now GLA has a feasible mid game counter to comanche spam, and Gamma is far harder to access. It wont be as easy as teching up to a Palace anymore, you'll need a Palace AND a Black Market to get Gamma. Also the RPGs should not have stinger site tracking.
Strats vs china work much better with tox tunnels as opposed to reg tunnels ... change poison damage vs tanks slightly to fix both
Most of china player need to work on their micro! i can't believe that they can't win with double money than me (sometime..). Check replay :
Demo1c nuke, spalding etc...
They don't need dual money to win vs usa!!!!!! stop WASTING your unit by 50, a gatling is in front of a lazer tank? RETREAT, SAVE IT! use your micro, atack from both side in same time , capture the map when usa is busy to micro EVERY battle (its a rule!) and you will see a different way than 'usa must be nerfed like that:
gatling range : half map (8player map) cost : free build time : half a second overload radiation: 7 full screen nuke plane avaible at prom 1 every 2 second etc....
real question: china have prob vs usa now? at same level? at top level ? who is the ultra usa evil with 90% vs any side? doesnt exist so S T F U and anyway no one patch will come like that with you r ******** chinafreewin stfu stfu. You are right i always use tank and humvee or md etc... i have tryed to find x wing and tie fighter but coz i'm a noob i can't find them What is the point of your post? your kind of kids only call one thing -> permanent ban.
hihihihihihi gnignignignigni deus ex kid happy HONK HONK HONK ! deus retard happy!!! : You say that about this coment coz you think like that. You think that it's natural to use tips like that just becoz you still a kid. Give me an usaf player on cw with 80% win ...You bugme with your usaf seriously
you will prove once again how sad kid you are. nice joke c u
We discussed many changes, some suggestion are good, some bad and will not balance ZH.
Some of them are just silly and will make more a mod than a patch.
-- Plz don't post any new lists here, discuss the given changes plz --
There are really good suggestion in this forums, which will really make ZH more balanced than it is right now.
I want u to discuss here and to work out a propor list, which is small an doesn't hurt build orders so much.
Lets talk about some changes and find out if they are usefull or just a-good-to-have-thing.
I want particular motivate following people to discuss (maybe I add some more if while discussing ):
AgmLauncher, Sm34g0l, Murder, ^General
This guys are overall objective - that is what is needed to set up a propor list of changes.
I am normally a Random-player (see sig) and I want to have all 12 armies in the game - not less.
And yes guys this is my last post about changes to 1.05 - no killing rampage needed .
Okay, here the line I went :
My 1st question on ZH was ( from CCG to ZH) :
Why the hell are some armies hard underplayed, some hard overplayed & overpowered ?
There must be a solid reason for this behaviour.
2nd : I thought about maps which are usefull to get a good impression over ZH.
I think TD for 1on1 and FE for 2on2 are good enough. There are more 2on2-maps which are very good.
Then I want to have a overview over all costs, buildtimes and healthpoints.
Here is the exel-list !
Then I made a small discussion here and wanted to know what winchance in % each army has. Most votings seemed to be nearly mines - so I wrote down the winchanges on average.
The table isn't completed yet - if we make a good list for the cahnges I will complete it.
Table is for the overview what army is well balanced overall (lategames acpects etc.) and which is not.
Of course you can see there how hard a army is under- or overpowered.
Result was that SW and vanChina are not strong enough.
Toxin and Airforce are the most overpowered armies in the game, stealth needs a smaller nerf.
Based on this results I made a small list, what we can or should do.
Note that this list is a collection of ideas and that it isn't finished yet.
Remember : I want to discuss and change what needs to be changed here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here is collection of changes :
USA all :
- Range of Pathfinders reduced from 100% to 70%
They need 3 shots to kill a hero now.
- Change Humvee-Damage-Type to Gattling
- Damage-Type from TOW-Missiles from EXPLOSION to infantry_missile
- Humvees ~ 250% more vulnarable to radiation (nuke rad.)
- Chinook-armour vs. JET-Missiles slightly better (2 shots > 1 Chinook)
AF :
- Carpet bomber and spectre no longer contribute to gaining additional gen points
- Spectre cool down increased by 1:00
- Reduse PDL of KR
- Reduce the damage to buildings (KR)
- Comanche countermeasure armor effectiveness against SMALL_ARMS reduced from 38% to 25%
SW :
- Decreace prize of Humvee from 850$ to 800$.
- Decreace prize of Ambu from 700$ to 600$.
- Commanche from horrible 1800$ to 1600$
- Power outcoming powerplant (no upgrade) from 5 to 6
- Decreace AAs Fuel-Bomb-Detonation-Weapon
PrimaryDamage again from 900 to 500 and the
PrimaryDamageRadius from 70 to 50.
All China :
- Upgrade called Chain-Gun from 45s to 35s
- Upgrade_ChinaNuclearTank from 2000$ to 1000$
- Upgrade_ChinaUraniumShells from 2500$ to 1500$
- Weapons to type Gattling : Gattling-Tank-Gun-Air & Minigunner-Air-Gun
VanChina :
- TC-Prize decreased from 1400$ to 1300$
- LO from 800$ to 700$, buildtime from 15s to 13s
- Decrease overlord-cost from 2000$ to 1900$
- Gatt from 800 to 750$
- Move Nuclear Tanks and Uranium Shells upgrade from Nuke Silo to Propaganda Center
Nuke :
- BM-SpeedDamaged von 45 auf 35
- Overlord-SpeedDamaged von 40 auf 30
GLA all :
- BB-speed from 70/50 to 65/50
- Switch/change radar scan upgrade in the Black Market with the Gamma/Beta upgrade in palace
Marauder :
- Decrease DelayBetweenShots from MarauderTankGunUpgradeTwo from 750ms to 950ms
- Reduce marauders attack-range from 170 to 160
QuadCannon :
- Change damage type to a non-structure(-owning) destroying type
means buildings and tank armor vulnerability to the SMALL_ARMS damage type from 25% to 18%
Stealth :
- Tunnel with upgrade 200$
Tox :
- Scorpion from 650$ to 700 $
- Decrease Tunnel-damage do tanks.(--> Flamer survives here)
- Now 4 Tox-Terrorists are needed for one WF
- Toxin-Shells from Marauder will appear after Gamma-Upgrade.
Will be updated if we discussed sth. out !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what do you mean, what is maybe wrong, what I have forgotten here.
Plz discuss, R4v3n .
This post has been edited by R4v3n: May 18 2006, 19:31 PM
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