An attempt to revive macro and base related multi-tasking in the upcoming sequel to StarCraft, a submossion for the contest organized by SCLegacy.
Here's a short excerpt:
Criteria.
1) The ideal new macro mechanic should be direct in its usage and provide beneficial gameplay.
2) The ideal new macro mechanic should have direct strategical value.
3) The ideal new macro mechanic should create a wide skill gradient and allow players of different play styles to distinguish themselves.
4) The ideal new macro mechanic should give the player alternatives, both of which should have their advantages and disadvantages.
5) The ideal new macro mechanic should be dynamic in the sense that it depends on the player and his opponent's choices.
6) The ideal new macro mechanic should allow for UI features such as MBS and/or auto-mining to remain unchanged and not punish the players for using them.
7) The ideal new macro mechanic should not be mindless nor repetitive.
8) The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention sink in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making.
(The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention/APM sink (i.e. it needs to be used frequently enough to become a relevant task) in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making (the biggest issue with MBS and auto-mining), however, it should not discourage micro.)
9) The ideal new macro mechanic's effects should not be random - its results must have definite results.
10) The ideal new macro mechanic should not force a specific map design or play style.
11) The ideal new macro mechanic should be flexible in its ability to be balanced.
TL:DR. (all numbers subject to balance)
1. Three mineral mining modes for workers:
Regular Mining Mode: you're credited with 5 minerals from 5 you've mined per each mining trip (5/5), 100% efficiency.
Strip Mining Mode: 7/10, 70% efficiency.
After a set number of mining trips Strip Mining Modedegenerates into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode as the mineral patch status turns from Strip Mining into Wasteful Strip Mining.
Wasteful Strip Mining Mode: 7/15, 47% efficiency.
2. In order to bring the mineral patch status back to Strip Mining status, you have to mine in Regular Mining Mode for a while.
3. Workers start in Regular Mining Mode by default. You have to manually switch them to Strip Mining Mode to take advantage of increased mining rate, which is often more benefiting than Regular Mining Mode.
4. The mineral patch’s current status is hinted at by graphical cues and – when the ALT key is held – a progress bar.
I've heard about this. FA seems to bring it up in any TL.net thread about Macro mechanics. It seems neat. Has drawbacks and benefits, and not too tedious, as one doesn't have to use it.
I think you should make idea's like this race specific else it wont work and you get the same macro for all 3 races and thats exactly what you dont want.
Like terran can overmine with scv's but dont mine at full efficiency (like your idea)
Zerg can use queen ability or w/e to get larva spawns quicker
(gota make it easy for toss else people gona complain toss might be hard to play)
Give pylons a ability to overcharge at the cost of ''pylon shields/minerals/toss units come without shields'' or something so you can overpower 1 gateway per pylon or per 2 dunno(inside the pylon radios ofc).
Fuck me that last is a prety pimp idea actualy for a hung over me
I have not read the rar file but I think you should look for adding 3 different kinds of macro mechanics and not one for all races to add any depth and deeper choices between the races.
This post has been edited by ServaNt: Dec 26 2008, 01:32 AM
My first thought was "hey, neat", but after thinking about it for a while, I fear it's going to be "strip mine ALL THE TIME and expand really, really, really fast EVERYWHERE!", and we end up with a weird mutant child of SC and CnC 3
Wouldnt you just group all your workers in 1 hotkey?
Than click the ability once in awhile cause automining is still here no? The way I see it now is that you can switch between 2 modes or am i missing something. Sure you can miss new workers ofc but then you got like 90% of your workers doing this till you have added a few new ones.
This post has been edited by ServaNt: Dec 26 2008, 11:38 AM
Really well thought out by you two. I can't support it though because my support is for the only real solution - SC1 macro.
Considering it's basically the same exact thing as SC1 macro - you select a worker as it comes out, and put it on faster mining. In any game between competitive players, they will use this 100% to mine. Nothing personal, it's just another "artificial solution" to an imaginary problem.
SC1 macro is the best solution (obviously) but if blizzard are going to screw up the game, that is the only time I'd endorse what you guys came up with, as it is most likely 20x better than the half-assed things Blizzard are trying to put in.
still, SC1 macro = beta tested for the past 10 years. It is the only tried and true "solution" to the macro problem that blizzard is voluntarily creating for itself.
You know, I kind of like the current schema, streamlined, but if you never check in, you'll end up with inefficiency due to workers waiting to use temporarily offline geysers.
My first thought was "hey, neat", but after thinking about it for a while, I fear it's going to be "strip mine ALL THE TIME and expand really, really, really fast EVERYWHERE!", and we end up with a weird mutant child of SC and CnC 3
exactly my thoughts tbh. Every game will be super fast expand no matter what your opponent does ;l
which is OK, that's how it is *sometimes* in SC1, but there's still lots of micro oriented options in SC1. With this type of thing, it'd basically always be strip mine asap, fast expo and play defense vs any offensive oriented opening. Then go steamroll with your better econ and bigger army (just like cnc3 mass refs in 1.04 like iaguz said).
Anything to make the game more macro focused is good thx oceanic
1 point btw Years ago starcraft pro maps were micro oriented The map makers,korean and progamers wanted to make the actual maps with lots of expansions, so macro>micro coz ppl wanted to
Anything to make the game more macro focused is good thx oceanic
1 point btw Years ago starcraft pro maps were micro oriented The map makers,korean and progamers wanted to make the actual maps with lots of expansions, so macro>micro coz ppl wanted to
Indeed, maps are usually designed with a close natural and a relatively easy way to get your 3rd.
Interesting. I didn't read the TL tread (just OP). The only thing is that it would become mundane. Also, the game is balanced at certain ecomic rates. It might through off the balance by too quickly getting into midgame.
I suppose I hadn't thought of that before, that the game is balanced around a specific income rate. However, there are two types of minerals with yellowing yielding a higher income rate so in essence it's the same kind of situation.
Interesting. I didn't read the TL tread (just OP). The only thing is that it would become mundane. Also, the game is balanced at certain ecomic rates. It might through off the balance by too quickly getting into midgame.
yep, every game will basically start out in the mid-game, both players expanding even faster than we see in SC1 due to getting almost twice the cash.
I can see this killing a fuck load of offensive openings.
also @ holynight commenting the maps in the past being more micro oriented...i don't know if this is completely true. The metagame at that time was not evolved where players knew the most efficient builds, especially fast expo TvZ/PvZ which was a fucking crazy idea back then.
I remember playing, either around 2002-2003 probably, and I was training 1v1 ZvP on lost temple and the guy went forge first with a pylon at his expansion and I typed in: "lol"
he proceeded to own me with reavers and corsairs...LOL, it was a new thing back then, and everyone that built a forge b4 a gateway was considered a n00b -.- you were supposed to two gate zealot and autolose in late game to 3-5 ultra lings lol
but since the player base for starcraft2 is going to be so damn good, not to mention the proscene will be motivated...by money...this means the metagame is going to evolved so fucking quick it is not even funny.
So with a mechanic like yours, you can bet every game will be super fast expo into basically massing a whole bunch of shit - aka whatever the strongest unit per cost is ala cnc3 1.04 style
blizz just needs to stick with sc1 macro tbh and they will have a winner. no more condilluded solutions plz, but like I said, compliments to you guys thinking this thing out so much.
also, early starcraft maps in proleagues and on the bnet ladder+online had around 7-8 mineral patches at the mains if I remember correctly. I know for sure there weren't as many at the expansions, so those types of maps lended themselves to less eco-driven play anyways.
This post has been edited by avilo: Jan 10 2009, 07:43 AM
It'd be much easier if you guys discussed this on TL.net. I've explained all this there.
First of all, Strip Mining is 'only' 7/10 so that's 40% gathering rate increase and 100% mining rate increase - far from "getting almost twice the cash." Not to mention the numbers could be adjusted to 6/1X (20% gathering rate increase) if the pacing is an issue.
Another solution could be making the status of all mineral patches in one's main Wasteful so that stripmining to turboexpanding is not an option.
As for reverting back to SC macro - not an option. They're not going to go back to SBS - that'd make using Warp-in a pain in the ass. Same for rally-mining. Breaking the UI is not a solution at this point.
If you look at that really awful multiplayer video with those terrible commentators and even worse players, you can see, this is one of their 'zomg pro 1v1 balanced woot leet maps'. It had more expo's and most 1v1 maps in sc1. not including the 'high yield' mineral patch, I for one, will NEVER run out of money if I'm using strip mining the whole time. The benefits outweigh the penalties. Rarely games go to lategame, to the extreme point where money gets tight, and usually its with amateur players who can't close deals and find the advantage..
Either way its a terrible fuckin idea and I can guarantee anyone worth their salt will leave it on all the time.
It'd be much easier if you guys discussed this on TL.net. I've explained all this there.
First of all, Strip Mining is 'only' 7/10 so that's 40% gathering rate increase and 100% mining rate increase - far from "getting almost twice the cash." Not to mention the numbers could be adjusted to 6/1X (20% gathering rate increase) if the pacing is an issue.
Another solution could be making the status of all mineral patches in one's main Wasteful so that stripmining to turboexpanding is not an option. As for reverting back to SC macro - not an option. They're not going to go back to SBS - that'd make using Warp-in a pain in the ass. Same for rally-mining. Breaking the UI is not a solution at this point.
According to blizzard it is always an option to go to SC1 macro. Unless they've been bullshitting the entire time.
In 10 years time we will have starcraft 3 and people will be saying, OMG auto-strip mining will destroy SC3!!
My issue with this solution is that it can be optimized, what i mean to say is that there is a perfect way of gathering lots of minerals fast. It's not really any better than no-automine since both solutions are not decisions, they are artificial ways to force people to collect minerals faster.
If blizzard really wants to have a big macro component, then they should just go back to SC's macro system.
Personally, I think it's dodgy that they feel they need to artificially force macro. If people really want a heavy macro focused game then they can go play SC and that's fine. It's okay to make a new game with a different focus on player attention.
As another poster said, the way they are going about this now means that we will just get a bastard child of SC1. They really need to decide whether they want to remake SC or make SC2.
(includes two text files & four pictures)
An attempt to revive macro and base related multi-tasking in the upcoming sequel to StarCraft, a submossion for the contest organized by SCLegacy.
Here's a short excerpt:
Criteria.
1) The ideal new macro mechanic should be direct in its usage and provide beneficial gameplay.
2) The ideal new macro mechanic should have direct strategical value.
3) The ideal new macro mechanic should create a wide skill gradient and allow players of different play styles to distinguish themselves.
4) The ideal new macro mechanic should give the player alternatives, both of which should have their advantages and disadvantages.
5) The ideal new macro mechanic should be dynamic in the sense that it depends on the player and his opponent's choices.
6) The ideal new macro mechanic should allow for UI features such as MBS and/or auto-mining to remain unchanged and not punish the players for using them.
7) The ideal new macro mechanic should not be mindless nor repetitive.
8) The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention sink in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making.
(The ideal new macro mechanic should provide a viable attention/APM sink (i.e. it needs to be used frequently enough to become a relevant task) in the macro department in order to reward good multi-tasking and micro-to-macro decision making (the biggest issue with MBS and auto-mining), however, it should not discourage micro.)
9) The ideal new macro mechanic's effects should not be random - its results must have definite results.
10) The ideal new macro mechanic should not force a specific map design or play style.
11) The ideal new macro mechanic should be flexible in its ability to be balanced.
TL:DR. (all numbers subject to balance)
1. Three mineral mining modes for workers:
Regular Mining Mode: you're credited with 5 minerals from 5 you've mined per each mining trip (5/5), 100% efficiency.
Strip Mining Mode: 7/10, 70% efficiency.
After a set number of mining trips Strip Mining Mode degenerates into Wasteful Strip Mining Mode as the mineral patch status turns from Strip Mining into Wasteful Strip Mining.
Wasteful Strip Mining Mode: 7/15, 47% efficiency.
2. In order to bring the mineral patch status back to Strip Mining status, you have to mine in Regular Mining Mode for a while.
3. Workers start in Regular Mining Mode by default. You have to manually switch them to Strip Mining Mode to take advantage of increased mining rate, which is often more benefiting than Regular Mining Mode.
4. The mineral patch’s current status is hinted at by graphical cues and – when the ALT key is held – a progress bar.
Here's a small teaser
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