Red Alert 3

i would agree with sov changes, but cost of flak increased to 400? its too much, sov player wont have any option to defend cryo rush coz it will be impossible to have enough flaks to counter cryos and bullfrogs are biggest ****

Cryos will have lower health, im sure sovs can defend just fine

what about super weapons?? no one use them... maybe time decrease ??

This post has been edited by chenoch: Apr 29 2009, 20:15 PM

i know that cryos will have lower hp, but i wont have enough flaks to counter cryos because allies will simply spam dogs and i wont have money to build them, so how can i stop cryos?

scout + flak tower? and 400 for flak is overkill, 350 is fine (said this at least 20 times now )

You can't, 650 is still a ton of health for cryos and with flaks being the only option, cryos will be about the same as they are now or a little better vs sovs. I suspect the patch to force sov players to go war factory, then allies will just switch to all vindis instead of making cryo. Flak nerf is not needed w/ hammer tank nerf because now hammers wont outrange guardians anyway, and vs. empire flaks are currently not OP at all because IW's are so cheap / good mixed with VX's.

I will give my opinion on the whole proposed balance changelist now
Colours r like followed:
Good things
Mediocre things
Bad things
Questions
Suggestions

Global:
Garrison Range bonus reduced to 75% from 100%.
It will be easier to ungarrison buildings with PKs and IWs now and especially empire needed that
Will following units be able to outrange garrisoned buildings?: Flak Troopers/Javelin Soldiers(and their 2ndary)/Tankbuster/Conscripts(and their 2ndary)/Tanks

Walls / Structures no longer block line of sight while being constructed.
Build&Cancel or Build&Hold won't work anymore to cancel javelins 2nd ability or the fire of t3-artillery (if they would still have line of sight)
Units still can be walled in by walls and Build&Hold with super reactors since they still got 100% health when starting to be constructed
And Build&Hold still can be used to block units like for instance u can prevent enemy units to fire on ur harvester at ur sea-refinery when Build&Hold a powerplant there, which in my opinion is a good feature tho

Parachute drop time increased.
If the rare case of a late-game with allies appears tanya-drop with a century-bomber is rly strong since u can destroy 1building+MCV against empire 2buildings+MCV against allies and unlimited amount of buildings against soviets if the opponents sells his infiltrated buidlings in the right time
Normally u scout a tanya-drop but ur defending units come a few seconds too late, so this change will help to counter it
Also the bullfrog-flak-parachute was too strong and this is nerfing it a lil bit too

Oil Derricks now explode when destroyed. Keep your distance.
Nice new feature
How big is the radius of explosion compared to Super Powerplant

Observation Post health increased to 10000 from 3000.
It will take longer to destroy this building on Infinity Isle when u r bored and want to attack something but this HP bug don't make Observation Posts more useful at all
How about a free radar scan every minute after capturing a observation post?

Allies:
Allied Javelin Soldier cost reduced to 300 from 400.
Might be too much since they already were useful in some situations
At the moment u only build 1-4 of them to take out key buildings with their 2ndary or to support apollo fighters to ensure air dominance
With this buff they will get part of the main army again (donno if this is intended tho)
I would recommend a smaller buff like 350/375$ or just leave it on 400$

Allied Aircraft Carrier drone speed doubled.
Allied Aircraft Carrier reload time halved.
They will be used more often now
But i can't value it's effectiveness
We have to see how good this unit will be and buff/nerf it in the following patch

Allied Assault Destroyer Black Hole Armor bonus increased to 50% from 25%.
We will see how much of an effect it will have but they already are useful in some situations and might get too strong in combinations with other units

Allied Outpost now gains additional health when upgraded. 25% per level.
Nice, since high teched outposts are prime targests for the opponent also they are rarly used since teching in the MCV is saver and if u place production buildings correctly u can always tech them up and get your 3rd refinery

Allied Athena Cannon no longer requires line of sight to attack. It can fire over walls now!
They already were a good artillery
Only thing that prevented them from destroying buildings effectively was Build&Hold and Build&Cancel and this won't be possible in the next patch anyway
It wouldn't be a problem to destroy a wall and then attack the building at least 2 times untill another wall is rdy when unfinished walls won't block line of sight
U also have to keep in mind that the athena cannon has the best 2ndary ability of all land-artilleries

Allied Cryocopter health reduced to 650 from 750.
Cryos needed that nerf and it is also good that they din't get nerfed too much
Untill now it was possible to freeze a harvester guarded by a flak cannon and still escape if ur timing is good
It is good that the shrink-ray hasn't got nerfed since the cryo i only a support unit and still costs 1600$ nevertheless

Allied Chronorift cast delay reduced to 1s. Rift time changed to 5s for all levels.
Good change, so it isn't completely useless against good players but there is still room to reduce the amount of damage when u react in time
Is there still a delay after the chronori, where units which were affected by it can't move or shot for 2-3 sec? (in my opinion it is enough when the opponents army is reduced for 5 sec)

Soviets:
Soviet Hammer Tank’s can no longer leech while moving.
They needed a small nerf but this might be too much
Now 2ndary will be only used when u have a mass of hammer tanks since every leeching tank gets full amount of HP although they are attacking the smae vehicle/building
To compensate this comparatively big nerf u could set the delay of switching from primary to secondary weapon and vice versa to 0.0 sec, so players will be able to micro effectivaly (it's often not efficient to switch since u make less damage in time of delay and getting a second weapon won't compensate it)
The leech beam would be used more often and finally good players would be awarded when they try to do some "hard micro"

Soviet Apocalypse Tank grinder DPS halved.
What does DPS mean?

Soviet Flak Trooper Cost increased to 400 from 300.
Flak Troopers are strong, yes. But this is a unit soviet needs to get along.
Since bullfrogs are only mediocre against air and it takes some time untill u got 3 of them (this is how many u need to destroy one vindicator if the ally players has good micro) and they suck vs choppers too and u hardly can use MiGs there, so u need flak troopers
Terrordrone-Flak-Combo is quite strong tho but on the other hand one vindicator can kill 3 flaks with one fly
So i suggest a mine-nerf or a small money-nerf to 350$ but with a Armour-buff vs vindicator bombs so they won't get killed by one bomb

Soviet structures will no longer refund 100% of their cost if canceled after taking damage. Refund value reduction is equivalent to the damage taken by the building.
Good cuz u can't build up towers and cancel them when they are too damaged and get full money back
However it won't prevent Build&Hold structures/walls to block units since they still got 100% at the beginning of the construction
But i think it is good this way since soviet buildings would be to vulnerable if health would start at 0% and raise equivalently to the process of construction

Soviet Super Power Plant energy production reduced to 350 from 500.
Good since it gave too much power but it won't affect gameplay too much since need more than 450-500 power (1Super-PP&1PP or 1Super-PP&1PP&1MCV)

Soviet Stingray health increased to 450 from 360.
They can't be oneshoted by vindicators anymore although a fast naval yard could be very strong one some maps/for some match-ups
However they will be more useful to counter shoguns now

Soviet Dreadnaught Missiles now scatter against units.
What does this mean?

Japan:
Japan Tsunami Tank now auto-heals while it’s secondary ability is active.
I agree that they need a tiny buff but i think this goes into the wrong way
They are already very good against infantry since they can overall them with there 2ndary and get a Armour+Speed-buff
This auto-heal would make them even more an infantry-killer
But the main-issue is the tank-fight
So i suggest to leave this auto-heal and give them a tiny attack-buff against other tanks
How much would this auto-heal be tho?

Japan Honorable Discharge power no longer deals any friendly fire.
Finally u can use it now since it won't work against u

Japan King Oni health increased to 3000 from 2250.
A useless buff in my opinion
They are already strong and their 2ndary kicks ass too
Players just rather tech in their dock or dojo since u got shoguns and yuriko
Sometimes players lose many Onis to vindicators since they u need only 2 upgraded vindicator to destroy it, but it is the fault of the empire-player when he doesn't support them with anti-air
I wouldn't buff the King Oni at all
Ur porpuse it to make this units seen more often but when shogun and yuriko get nerfed that will be definatly the case

Japan Emperor’s Rage powers now limit the speed debuff to 75% for all levels.
The units were just as slow so u wouldn't do any damge when the opponent was retreating
The only useful case was when u are right in the opponents base but by a time like this the game should be over anyway, so good change

Japan Wave Force Artillery no longer requires line of sight for attacking. I.e. it can shoot through walls, buildings, and anything else dumb enough to get in front of it.
As i mentioned before this isn't quite necessary since Build&Hold and Build&Cancel will be abandoned
Although it's 2ndary isnt as strong it still is very fast for an artillery

Japan Shogun Battleship speed reduced to 50 from 75.
Their speed-nerf is the right way to go
But i still think their attack should be nerfed a lil

Japan Shogun Battleship cannons now properly scatter against other units.
What does this mean?

In the end i still want to speak about some issues, which might be forgotten:

Air-superiority fighter like apollos and MiGs are a lil too vulnerable, especially against strikers
But i wouldn't suggest nerfing the strikers anti-air-attack since they wouldn't be able to counter vindicators and twinblades correctly then
So, how about buffing the Air-fighters armour vs anti-air only a lil so there is at least a chance to save them when u r cautious and micro correctly

Another thing is yuriko
Natasha is okay and tanya is only good vs infantry-masses too
But Yuriko is rly strong and it has to be made counterable
U can counter both other commandos with air but against yuriko it is rly hard unless u got mass-air and also anti-infantry-tanks and anti-infantry-inf r only decent
Also she is very strong in buildings, too
I would suggest that her anti-air-ability should be removed, but there might be better ways to nerf her

Also i would appreciate a tiny nerf for the naginata (it isn't that much of an problem for allies, since they have hyrdofoils and force the empire-player to build mini-subs, but for soviets the akula is the only thing they can throw against it)

And finally i have a question on an issue, which is rly damn important for me:
Will the scroll-delay be removed?

P.S.: If some of the good players or EA-member want to discuss some of my comments with me, they might do it, but i won't answer to noobs, mid-players and stubborn players, who want to buff their own race

Thx
~Wilko~

This post has been edited by Wilko: Apr 29 2009, 15:23 PM

Interesting list, good one overall. Although empire's left power tree is too strong as mentioned several times in this thread.

Wilko: You are wrong about the King Oni. As Foxboxx said:



And DPS means damage pr. second

Okay,

My suggestion:
Make the Flak trooper and the Javelin Soldier cost 350 each.

Why:
Because the flak is quite handy at all times and dishes out a fair amount of damage.

The Javelin is decreased to 350 since it is not that cost effective vs tanks.

Concerns:
The flak price increase is not really a problem imo.

The javelin decrease might be just a slight problem, as you all know the javelin secondary destroys buildings in seconds, but that could be compensated with a small building damage nerf in secondary.

My two cents

This post has been edited by Tedde: Apr 29 2009, 15:22 PM

Thx for the info about DPS but Onis r cost-effective, when combined with other units
Sry Foxboxx, but u r wrong

This post has been edited by Wilko: Apr 29 2009, 15:20 PM

ok, for the mg turret maybe a indirect nerf, like the enemy seeing where they can fire. Somtimes this kind of buffs and nerfs can do a world of different.

Also with the tsuanmi tanks if you want to have them healing, this will make it a decent battle tank on a tank vs tank, but because of there anti infranty role i would say increase infranty damage to it.

TBH i think the super reactor should stay the same but i dunno it realy won't make that much a difference.

DPS means Damage Per Second

Yeh, Oni buff is a little much, especially vs. allies. They already massacare mirages if they are equal in number.

I think the flak change is fine. The hardcore soviet players are gonna fight tooth and nail for it not to happen, but it should. The are by fay the best infantry, and the cost now reflects that.

Same with the leech. It was so silly I see soviet players with a full army of upgraded hammers (with all kinds of stolen weapons) STILL running around using the leach and never even attempting to use the main and stolen guns. Same with apocs. Stupid... and illustrates how strong their secondary was...

And the trees , gotta change those trees! I like Zeros...

This post has been edited by Gunslinger: Apr 29 2009, 16:18 PM

The whole goal of this patch - to make bad units useful, and fix a few balance problems.

Oni is a bad unit currently. It costs as much as an apoc tank, and produces less than half the on-field results. This change is still going to have the oni playing second fiddle to the apoc, but the gap will shrink. (Much like how the shogun speed nerf and previous health nerf have still left it the best artillery ship... but the gap between the others will be smaller now).

This post has been edited by Vishiano: May 9 2009, 22:49 PM

n1 job EA. When patch 1.10 released everybody was crying about the big nerfs to the allied airforce but i think its pretty balanced, so what about waiting for the patch and just look if the game is balanced more then it was befor.

Yes! That's a good observation.

The ridiculous_hyperbole_team was in full force prior to 1.10. Turns out, the patch was great, and the game is much better since. EA nailed it.

I'm much more confident that these 1.11 changes will get similar treatment. They'll playtest them, they'll listen to feedback, and in the end, the game will be even better.

OOOOOO me 2 except no more damage or armour. I simply think making the secondary good so they can get a sort of micro buff, removing the orb so the enemy has to notice the mirage not turning into a tree to know if their enemy army coming. COuld promote some decent attempts to micro this unit.




ive said this, noone agreed with me they called me a noob. She is totally uncounterable unless you have like 10 dogs, bears (thus shes very cost effective), 1 aircraft is another £1400 and maybe she gets 2 vehicles.

Currently you need 6 vidicators, or 10 bears, dogs, or 6-7 riptides/tengus, 5-6 mirages, she can juggle a lot with good micro, ie.. life something then run, then life another then run.

Tanya and natasha a sickle or riptides a 1 helicopter will counter them and walls stop bases dieing.
------------------------------


Why soviet players saying allies getting buffed???????? this patch is hardly a buff to them.

Sea and athena are to match other units and stop wall explote to block artilery. And outpost health is very fair, noone can agrue about that not buffs.


Allied Cryocopter health reduced to 650 from 750. Nerf

Allied Chronorift cast delay reduced to 1s. Rift time changed to 5s for all levels. MEGA NERF

Allies loses one fo there key assets, the timebomb surgical strike NERF,

and Javlins - useless vs tanks at moment so i have to say is very fair. They should become part of their army. And why people say inf spam??? I dont think javlins are going to hold back tanks even after this.

Overall i think its a big nerf to the allies.

-------------------------------
KIng ONI's


I for one know how to micro them, 1 vs 1 appoc. Simply shoot at it and you will nearly kill it. If it uses grinder treads then you shoot it until your close, just before you start taking damage bullrush the appoc and it pushs it back and stuns it a bit so you got time to get another couple of shots in. You should almost have killed it.

Nerfing grinder treads though if used king oni will kill it. And with health buff vs cannons the king oni would win too.

In group king onis are more effective, they can kill 2-3 of the appocs before the real fighting begins, there like soviets sub speical but on land.

I think grinder treads should have a reasonable nerf like 25% MAX. And king oni shouldn't be changed.

This post has been edited by Gos_ultima: Apr 29 2009, 16:38 PM

No way...
Is it a joke?
1st of April or what?

I see 99% of this forum and official forum users are alies or japan players. This has to be explanation.

I agree soviets are the only stable faction but these nerfs are insane

I can't watch RA3 fail without posting anything...


Still garrisons on BBB or Cabana will be crucial, but this change is good I think.


Bye, bye making walls or pp's instantly to block javelins and others.
Nerf for soviet crane users.


So we are back in 1.08 ?
This nerf Tanya drop. But every soviet player can imagine Tanya destroying Super Reactor... All bullfrogs, flaks and stuff will die trying to take her out.
And YES, I can make walls over SR and I'm doing this, but Century Bomber or surgical strike easily destoy them. And again bullfrog secondary nerfed.


Ye. This one is great! Reminds me RA2


Allied navy buff. OK.


You mean Allied Cryocopterotank? 750 to 650... Let's pray that's enough.


This makes hammer's secondary useless. Who use leech beam while standing still.
Everyone use Leech Beam with 'D'. It's the same 'trick' as allies stop micro.
This should be: # Soviet Hammer Tank’s can no longer leech while not facing target.


Who use Apocs primary? Now there will be like: mirage = apoc.


I agree... Nerf the mines... But why increase cost of flak troopers + decrase javelins cost? I think it's too much.


Bye, bye tesla push


'Super'? I can't imagine doing more than 1 SR to provide power for my base in 1v1. Not to mention 2v2 (or 3v3 but I don't play this much).
This is Soviet building! Like in RA2! Don't cry becouse allies dont have one. On the other hand you have to guard this structure like your own ass. When you lose SR it's really hard for soviet.


Who uses stingray anyway?


OK.


Another joke?


No way... King Oni is now cost-effective. What is the point in making them OP?


So... OP Yuriko + OP Onis and Artillery shooting everything in the line of fire? Mix it with some VX and it's unstoppable.


I think it's not enough. And Naginata is still so powerful.


Secret Protocols are ok.
Maybe left side of Empire tree is too powerful but not that much.



CONCLUDE: I'm soviet player, so i know what this patch can do to them.
Soviets are to DOMINATE GROUND as allies dominate air and Japans dominate sea.
Soviets ground domination is mainly becouse of hammers, apocs and flaks and they are gonna be nerfed. I can't even imagine Japans ground > Soviet ground but this can become real after this patch.
I'm playing soviets since game premiere, but right now I'm considering changing my faction

Soviets gonna be owned real hard after this patch.

I don't expect to be listened anyway... I'm not Dwelf or Crunk so nobody is gonna read this


P.S. : Sorry for my english

Just so nice work EA, buffing king onis was the beast idea ever.

This post has been edited by fishlol: Apr 29 2009, 17:02 PM

hammer change is a little over the top havent read every post so im sure someone has suggested this but the leach beam should only work while facing the target, its fine that it works while they are moving so long as u have to reverse move them to use the leach beam

for the ally changes, not sure if the javelin cost change is needed, i think they are quite fine the way they are now

as for the rest, only after playing for a while can any serious observations be made