Dawn of War 2

Take buildings out of the game

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# 21Jonto0 Dec 23 2011, 01:41 AM
Weren't spores bugged in 3.18 so it didn't do dmg to garrison?

Or perhaps that was a balance thing and I missed that.

I've also always wondered why slugga burnas don't have the same dmg as sm flamer. It even costs more than the SMs.
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# 22Ekko Tek Dec 23 2011, 01:47 AM
What 1v1 maps still have problematic buildings? A lot of them don't have any. 3.18 removed them from GTJ and part of Siwal. The only one I can think of is the Space Hulk map and GTG - which do still have buildings over the power nodes and VPs. Removing them from the game is too drastic and would make those two maps in 1v1 really bland without a total redesign. I know the anti-building peeps will hate me for saying this, but let's see a replay where a building really has too much impact over the game. Most games I see include a hefty portion of garrisonned squad wipes too. If ork/nid really is underperforming (and I admit those are the only two races I don't play) and losing ground because of it, then I'd prefer buffing their anti-garrison to outright removal. And we must just be talking tier1 here ofc right? I do think there is some truth in 2v2 and 3v3 to it being less of a concern - you've got multiple gen farms and can focus other map areas until you are ready to take the affected area back. In 1v1, if it's on a map where you lose your native farm because of a building and being ork/nid, that's more severe but I honestly don't see it come up much in replays.
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# 23harrehpottah Dec 23 2011, 01:58 AM
QUOTE(Ekko Tek @ Dec 23 2011, 02:47 AM) *
In 1v1, if it's on a map where you lose your native farm because of a building and being ork/nid, that's more severe but I honestly don't see it come up much in replays.


8========D


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# 24Ekko Tek Dec 23 2011, 02:20 AM
Oh yeah lol - how could I forget that map!?
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# 25Uliseh Dec 23 2011, 02:26 AM
im going to create a post where i can show some incoherences in GTG , but one point that i want to add

For Orks is almost imposible to counter a Garrisioned Supression team in T1 and if the bulding is on a gen farm u can almost say gg because of the huge power advantage given by the garriosioned supress team

Nids needs flanking to take the building at least ...

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# 26Acra Dec 23 2011, 02:38 AM
fact nids is the worst race at dealing with buildings, 2nd to orks, because 1 hero can acutally counter buildings.


in 2v2, golgari depths i think it is called ( all players start in the corners and 1 side is massivly overloaded with buildings) or ruins of argus, the nid/ork mate is really fucked.
buildings are per definiton are bad mechanic. a simple fix would be that no setup team can garriosn them.

did someone mention that buildings favor sm/chaos? most of them only have 3 or 4 windows to shoot, so a tac squad will not loss any dps, but a termagaunt squad losses over 60% of his dps...


buildings have to go. the new maps lost many of there buildings and to be fair, every map shall loss every building in it
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# 27Scrael Dec 23 2011, 02:58 AM
I think there should be more buildings or even the option to place buildings and shape the terrain over time...since time is the ultimate resource in a RTS.
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# 28harrehpottah Dec 23 2011, 03:24 AM
I agree with scrael because he made a gd joke

nice custom made avatar too ;)
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# 29j3st3r Dec 23 2011, 04:45 AM
Buildings are awesome because they have such clearly defined counters, benefits and drawbacks.

That some of the clearly defined counters to buildings are not effective against buildings is an issue that I agree should be adressed.

That different buildings counters have different levels of effectiveness depending on the size of the building and the size of the squad inside is only a real issue if you only have 1 building counter the entire game. Which is not true to any race.

What is the point of garrisons if they do not sit at at choke points or at nodes? Placing buildings in the middle of nowhere is just as good a suggestion as removing them from the game.

Buildings can be used to not only deny an area, but to force certain responses from opponents, and also to set up certain builds (e.g. Warlock with Immolator and 2x Banshees on Angel Gate). Why get rid of this tactical and strategic depth by getting rid of buildings entirely?

I agree that anti building units should effectively counter buildings, but I do not agree that buildings should be removed from the game entirely.

Edit - The model per window thing is also a bit of an issue. I'd love to see extra squads fill up buildings and then start double loading windows, but I'm not sure if that is possible to implement easily.

This post has been edited by j3st3r: Dec 23 2011, 04:54 AM

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# 30ratixleingod Dec 23 2011, 04:56 AM
QUOTE(j3st3r @ Dec 22 2011, 20:45 PM) *

What is the point of garrisons if they do not sit at at choke points or at nodes? Placing buildings in the middle of nowhere is just as good a suggestion as removing them from the game.

Buildings can be used to not only deny an area, but to force certain responses from opponents, and also to set up certain builds (e.g. Warlock with Immolator and 2x Banshees on Angel Gate). Why get rid of this tactical and strategic depth by getting rid of buildings entirely?


Yes, strategic depth, forcing your opponent to buy Slugga Flamer (which really isn't that great save in maybe what, 2 MUs, tops? Even then, it's kinda meh.) Forcing your opponent to buy spores, which don't do their job well, especially vs ©SM. Forcing your opponent to have to wait until tier 2 to get out a counter, which may not even be a good unit in the MU (such as stikks and/or zoans vs [C]SM), but you HAVE to pay (stikks/zoans) 360/20, 400/40+ for to counter the 0/0 cost building your opponent is whoring. Or quick tech to tier 3 (600/275) and pay 500 red for tform/roks.

Yes man, great freaking contribution, I'm glad you know your shit.

I agree that buildings are a cool factor, but they aren't well implimented and quite frankly, they won't be. They CAN be, but they won't be. Every race needs to have great and affordable tier 1 counters, even if that means an indirect nerf to what can garrison (like not allowing WGuard ffs or dev teams to enter garrisons). This would be acceptable.

This post has been edited by ratixleingod: Dec 23 2011, 05:03 AM
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# 31j3st3r Dec 23 2011, 05:28 AM
QUOTE(ratixleingod @ Dec 23 2011, 14:56 PM) *
I agree that buildings are a cool factor, but they aren't well implimented and quite frankly, they won't be. They CAN be, but they won't be. Every race needs to have great and affordable tier 1 counters, even if that means an indirect nerf to what can garrison (like not allowing WGuard ffs or dev teams to enter garrisons). This would be acceptable.


Good to know. Why type all the hate about geting rid of buildings from the game when what we both want is for buildings to be viable and counterable by all races?

I like the suggestions, much better than removing all the buildings from the game.

This post has been edited by j3st3r: Dec 23 2011, 05:29 AM

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# 32ratixleingod Dec 23 2011, 05:44 AM
Because relic won't do it. I'd rather just have buildings removed so that you don't have to worry about them. If they are going to stay, though:

Make it so that nids have ONE unit that can enter them.

TGaunts do not count, for reasons acra listed. There is never, ever, ever a reason to put them in one, so they might as well be unable to do so.

tbh, one other idea I always like was to make the building easier to destroy and not let suppression teams suppress while in buildings.

You can't suppress a unit in a building, why should they be allowed to do the same to you? This, along with a weakness to melee would be nice and beneficial to every race.

But then again, it probably won't happen, so yeh post-13661-1143531603.gif

I remember when gene's had Power Melee... Just get them near a building, and it was gg.
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# 33GuruSkippy Dec 23 2011, 07:33 AM
QUOTE(ratixleingod @ Dec 23 2011, 07:44 AM) *

Because relic won't do it.

this,
Ork players are asking for a proper T1 garrison counter since we knew that stikkbombaz were about to be moved in T2 in TiOW.
We are still waiting.
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# 34SupahSpankeh Dec 23 2011, 09:10 AM
QUOTE(ratixleingod @ Dec 23 2011, 05:44 AM) *

I remember when gene's had Power Melee... Just get them near a building, and it was gg.


I apologise in advance if I have this wrong (good chance of it) but I thought they changed the damage type modifier to buildings to prevent Annihilation map inbalances rather than changed the damage type available to 'stealers? AFAIK 'stealers are still power_melee (upgrading to heavy_melee later).

EDIT:

Would it be possible to make spores do _2_ explosions when they detonate? The first can be the normal explosion (so balance remains unchanged) but the second, which will _only_ do damage to garrisoned units, can be larger and/or more powerful. That way we can adjust their place in the game independently of their AG function.

Also, when a spore is shot/killed, it should cause a weaker explosion with a smaller radius. That way spore spam is untenable but they retain their role when used in groups of 1-2.

This post has been edited by SupahSpankeh: Dec 23 2011, 09:20 AM
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# 35BahamutaeonVIII Dec 23 2011, 09:50 AM
QUOTE(SupahSpankeh @ Dec 23 2011, 09:10 AM) *

I apologise in advance if I have this wrong (good chance of it) but I thought they changed the damage type modifier to buildings to prevent Annihilation map inbalances rather than changed the damage type available to 'stealers? AFAIK 'stealers are still power_melee (upgrading to heavy_melee later).

EDIT:

Would it be possible to make spores do _2_ explosions when they detonate? The first can be the normal explosion (so balance remains unchanged) but the second, which will _only_ do damage to garrisoned units, can be larger and/or more powerful. That way we can adjust their place in the game independently of their AG function.

Also, when a spore is shot/killed, it should cause a weaker explosion with a smaller radius. That way spore spam is untenable but they retain their role when used in groups of 1-2.


Or you could give Nids there Old fashion BIG KABOOM spore mines back in the day when spore mines were actually used. =P
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# 36BahamutaeonVIII Dec 23 2011, 09:58 AM
Anyways if any building or structure on maps need to be removed those buildings should be mainly ones that are covering the Gen farm like in Green tooth gorge Or ones that also look over Vps once again like on Green tooth gorge tongue.gif. But mainly its the buildings looking over the natural power farm which annoys people so much because as soon as the enemy gets a suppression team in a building with a squad to destroy gens theres literally nothing you can do. Btw i'm talking when both sides are tier 1.

For orks i reckon if you tried hard enough and pressure relic to make bomba boyz tier 1 just for anti garrison.
And for Nids possibly a buff to Spore mines and Warrior barb strangler AG damage.

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# 37ratixleingod Dec 23 2011, 10:09 AM
holy shit yeh lol
can't believe I said that sleep.gif
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# 38PingviN Dec 23 2011, 10:51 AM
QUOTE(VindicareX @ Dec 23 2011, 00:45 AM) *

Buildings are just so easy to move around they are more so a limitation in map control than a dominating presence.
But hey, I'm apparently the guy who plays abusive chaos/SM(lol), so wtf do I know about the game.


And therefor they're fine? Again, your Space Marines and Chaos have several options to clear a building as well as having the most advantages of being inside one. Orks can't clear out a building in T1 unless really, really massing down on it. Tyranids have a hard time doing so because Spore Mines doesn't work on the larger buildings, Spores are slow, they cost 100/5 and can be focused down before they actually take the unit in the building out. I understand you don't see the issue when your flamer is a billion times more efficient, Noise Marines just lol right over the place and both starting units have access you anti-garrison right off the bat.

I've only ever seen you play Chaos/Space Marines and I don't call abuse. I just state that you wouldn't know the pain in trying to dislodge HI 3 man squad out of a building as Orks/Nids. And there are plenty of buildings placed in very nasty places, locking down a VP or Power.
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# 39^Gantz^ Dec 23 2011, 10:52 AM
I, for one, would like to see FAR MOAR buildings in this game. Perhaps the buildings could be so many that they would be so close together they could exchange fire between the buildings; however, they should not be so close as to allow for flamer range.

In conclusion, plox Reric build more buildings in this game because I fucking hate nids and orks.
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# 40ratixleingod Dec 23 2011, 11:31 AM
QUOTE(SupahSpankeh @ Dec 23 2011, 01:10 AM) *


Also, when a spore is shot/killed, it should cause a weaker explosion with a smaller radius. That way spore spam is untenable but they retain their role when used in groups of 1-2.


Spores should not detonate when destroyed. I doubt you were around in 1.5, but that was a nightmare when that was implemented. Granted, spores had a 4 second det that could rape anything, and that was very scary in it's own right. But you couldn't kill them with melee ever. It would suppress you, deal heavy damage, and maybe knock back or stun.

Heck no, even a slight bit of damage would be bad. I know it "makes sense" and is "realistic" for this to be the case, but please- not again.
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