StarCraft 2

What's Good and Bad about Starcraft 2

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# 61RSeeker Mar 17 2012, 01:36 AM
What's so great about chess. The game's been around for ages, and I just don't think it offers anything new.

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# 62ServaNt Mar 17 2012, 21:15 PM
BW didnt had bad pathing just throwing it in here, forgot what, where and who to quote but I see this baseless claim come up alot across the boards.

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# 63JimRaynor Mar 18 2012, 08:18 AM
QUOTE(ServaNt @ Mar 17 2012, 17:15 PM) *

BW didnt had bad pathing just throwing it in here, forgot what, where and who to quote but I see this baseless claim come up alot across the boards.


the quality of path finding is a matter of degree. it can't be pigeon-holed as either "good" or "bad".

for people under 20 accustomed to games that have much much better pathfinding algorithms run by machines 1000X more powerful they view SC1 pathfinding as poor...

1 guy jammed together the path-finding system for SC1 in a few days...
considering when SC1 was made and the limited power of the CPU in SC1's minimum recommended computer specs the path-finding for SC1 is a decent accomplishment... relative to today's standards SC1's pathfinding is poor.
and is only considered "good" by people who have spent time learning how to make up for its deficiencies.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=132171

"The difference is that BroodWar relies almost solely on A* to get the units to move from one point to another, mapping every single node the unit needs to traverse over. In Starcraft 2, it seems that a lot of the pathfinding is left up to the unit individual, and waypoints are kept to a minimum"

this is why people accustomed to well made games less than 4 years old think SC1's pathfinding is poor... by 2012 standards it is bad.

This post has been edited by JimRaynor: Mar 18 2012, 08:22 AM
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Felanis

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# 64Lynskey Mar 18 2012, 11:56 AM
BW pathing is like a lot of stuff from older games like skiing in Tribes, strafejumping in CoD etc. Yes it's the product of an older less perfect engine but doing things that exploited those imperfections was a huge part of gaming until recently. They were hard, really hard things to learn to do well and gave you an advantage. It was like a secondary skill ceiling.

A lot of frustration older gamers have these days is that all that has gone and is replaced by Unlocks, Ranks, gimmicks etc. It's the main reason people who came from BW think SC2 is very plain and uninteresting.

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# 65ServaNt Mar 18 2012, 13:03 PM
sc2,s pathing has way more failings than bw's. clusterfucking everything and clusterfucking everything even more when giving a single move or attack command. Boxing helps sometimes but only on units that have some space between them naturaly eg air dudes.

Merged posts together -PK

This post has been edited by ParanoidKami: Mar 20 2012, 18:59 PM

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# 66darkstormmm Mar 18 2012, 22:05 PM
QUOTE(ServaNt @ Mar 17 2012, 17:15 PM) *

BW didnt had bad pathing just throwing it in here, forgot what, where and who to quote but I see this baseless claim come up alot across the boards.

have you played on neo medusa?...

what kind of pathfinding is that?

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# 67ZeroChrome Mar 19 2012, 00:30 AM
QUOTE(darkstormmm @ Mar 18 2012, 15:05 PM) *

have you played on neo medusa?...

what kind of pathfinding is that?


You can't blame the game for not being able to path around something that can only be place via a hacked map editor.

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# 68darkstormmm Mar 19 2012, 03:18 AM
QUOTE(ZeroChrome @ Mar 18 2012, 20:30 PM) *

You can't blame the game for not being able to path around something that can only be place via a hacked map editor.

You can. Even if the temples are killed the units still chose the dumbest paths on that map

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# 69Trixx Mar 19 2012, 07:54 AM
Stop being sarcastic, disrespectful and negative to each other guys. Different opinions don't need to be wrong. If you don't agree with others you can say it nicely nonetheless.

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# 70ZeroChrome Mar 19 2012, 07:57 AM
QUOTE(darkstormmm @ Mar 18 2012, 20:18 PM) *

You can. Even if the temples are killed the units still chose the dumbest paths on that map


They just take the shortest path dont they? I hate that map so im not sure how the pathing works when the temples are gone.

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# 71JimRaynor Mar 19 2012, 14:57 PM
re: the SC2 unit movement issues here..
you can also experiment with using "Patrol" move before deciding "its broken".

The "SC1 Pathing is just fine" Topic
In general, if you believe the "pathing" in SC1 is better than the "pathing" in SC2 then you do not know what "pathing" is.

Pick a new phrase like ... "i like how Brood War moves stuff around" ...

but don't call it "pathing" so that you can try to sound like some kind of academic who is discussing "unit movement" like its some kind of graph theory or applied combinatorics problem.

I've linked to and presented the plethoria of pathing issues in SC1 and have yet to receive a single reply as to why these things represent "correct pathing"... all i get are replies about what is wrong with SC2 pathing.

Therefore, I must conclude Servant has conceded that the "pathing" in SC1 is inadequate by 2012 standards.

enough derailing lets just go back to talking about SC2.

different types of micro management are required to move large armies efficiently and safely across the map compared to games made before the year 2000.

The latest version of Microsoft Word is not automatically worse than WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS because it requires different micro... despite 50 year old receptionists who yell and scream about how inefficient MS Word is.
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# 72ParanoidKami Mar 20 2012, 03:20 AM
Tidied up the thread a bit. If you don't agree with someone don't just brush it off with a one liner but actually explain why you don't agree with them. If you don't like someone you could just ignore them, move on, and not drag this off-topic.

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# 73Locutus Mar 20 2012, 17:14 PM
Cleaned, again. sleep.gif

Posts were removed for a multitude of reasons, mostly because they did not contribute to a healthy discussion environment. I know many of you are used to getting away with things here in the SC2 section due to a lack of dedicated section moderators however that has changed.

In case you have yet to read the little green announcement at the top of this forum allow me to point everyone in the right direction.

We strive to maintain a fun and friendly atmosphere on Gamereplays that is geared towards healthy discussions so community members enjoy their stay. Therefore, we have increased moderation of this section to ensure the quality of discussion.

If you flame or troll then you will be warned and, if necessary, suspended or banned. We are more lenient towards banter as long as we can easily determine it is truly friendly banter that does not decrease the quality of discussion, but REAL flaming/trolling is not tolerated and we will take appropriate moderation action.


Now please, back on topic. If you wish to discuss moderation matters then do so via PM.


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# 74Carnevour Mar 21 2012, 20:51 PM
SC2 pathing is pretty idiotic when you try to micro and your unit gets stuck in another. But after playing CnC3 and KW for old good times sakes I will say its good unlike when your tank take 9 minutes to turn around and decide where to go, while stopping 30 times and change directions.

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# 75Vesuvius Mar 22 2012, 03:49 AM
QUOTE
"The difference is that BroodWar relies almost solely on A* to get the units to move from one point to another, mapping every single node the unit needs to traverse over. In Starcraft 2, it seems that a lot of the pathfinding is left up to the unit individual, and waypoints are kept to a minimum"

I have trouble believing that they were even using a correct implementation of A*. I'm sure I've seen brood war units get hung up on corners before.

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# 76FvRCrank Mar 22 2012, 05:42 AM
Goons specifically ~_~

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# 77JimRaynor Mar 22 2012, 09:05 AM
QUOTE(Vesuvius @ Mar 21 2012, 23:49 PM) *

I have trouble believing that they were even using a correct implementation of A*. I'm sure I've seen brood war units get hung up on corners before.

it was an approximation of A* .. they divided each map into a series of hexagonal shapes and once the AI decided upon the path of a unit the unit had to hit every single "hexagonal shape" in moving from point A to point B.
this is why you get break dancing tanks and dragoons.

the basic explanation is in the TL.Net link i provided at the beginning of this pathing discussion.

This post has been edited by JimRaynor: Mar 22 2012, 09:23 AM
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Felanis

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# 78Halose Apr 5 2012, 07:41 AM
some games, individual units matter more, bla bla bla. example is ccg.

but I still like starcraft 2. individual matter more in beginning. later on macro'ing just makes them expendable.

but hey, I'm no sc2 expert.


QUOTE(darkstormmm @ Feb 12 2012, 16:56 PM) *

And then they'll immediately switch back once they remember what it's like to play an EA game

but ea games suck. where have you been? ccg support? c&c 3 and tw, c&c 4... tho I think ra3 was decent, never played it online

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# 79darkstormmm Apr 12 2012, 17:18 PM
QUOTE(Halose @ Apr 5 2012, 03:41 AM) *

some games, individual units matter more, bla bla bla. example is ccg.

but I still like starcraft 2. individual matter more in beginning. later on macro'ing just makes them expendable.

but hey, I'm no sc2 expert.
but ea games suck. where have you been? ccg support? c&c 3 and tw, c&c 4... tho I think ra3 was decent, never played it online

that was my point.

everyoen who has hope in Generals 2 or any other EA game is delusional.

SC2 is far from perfect but every game EA has made is a laggy buggy piece of crap in comparison.

As bad as battle.net 2.0 is it's still better than gamespy. As bad as some random shit in SC2 is, it's still better than game.dat errors, and retarded game host advantage, and the pay as you go resource system, and the pop-up defenses anywhere you want building system, and all that crap.

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# 80L3gendary Apr 13 2012, 17:07 PM
Yeah the AI is one of my biggest gripes with sc2. That and the lack of microable and positional units.

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