Dawn of War 2

Baneblade & IG in general.

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# 1UBER_CHOMIK Mar 16 2012, 01:44 AM
I have a lot to throw against anyone who want to discuss game (especially IG) balance.

But my latest consideration is Baneblade.

2 main cannons are moderatly good. But BB in shape it is now, is kinda 1 shot mobile platform to them. Maybe 2 times.

Slow and big, gets easily destroyed by almost anything. Especially heavy melee hitters with some support.

Problem is, that BB doesn't have any function. And by that I mean that all other top units have one.

Avatar, GUO - tankers. Can take a lot of damage, but still mobile enough to try run away when in danger. Both have good damage and offensive abilities (Wailing Doom and Vomit) that does aoe damage and can get rid off a lot of weaker units.

Swarmlord - same as above (Leech essence, maybe not as effective, but good) and additionally he enable reinforcing.

Landraider - transporter, enable reinforcing, with 2 heavy falmers and assault cannon good against infantry (not mentioning granades ability even), so good vs. blobs. Crap against vehicles, but that is the price.

Battlewagon - transporter, 2 good abilities, not bad damage output. But as for me worst of them (except skills, those are great).

And now we are comming to BB. The most expensive from all of them. His good abilities tend to block on obsticles, because they are projectiles. Does he do anything except those?

No.

Why? First of all: moving accuracy 50%. FFS! Even orks Looted tank has 75%... Not sure if there is ANY other vehicle with 50% moving acc. Only a T1 Sentinel has also 50%... Really? REALLY?! 319 TONS vehicle is less stable then a dreadnought with it's 100%? Or what? What lowers accuracy that damn much?
Secondly: With it's shitty acc it doesn't have almost any damage output.

Against infantry:
All 3 HEAVY TWIN-LINKED Bolters that it has, aren't in fact heavy bolters. They are treated as single, normal bolters. All 3 of them together, shooting at 1 target does LESS damage then Tactical Space Marines squad with Sergeant and plasma rifle.... No comment on that.
BB anty infantry fire: 66.67 DPS piercing damage type (don't forget about 50% accuracy, so it's actually about 33 DPS).
TSM with Sergeant and plasma rifle: 44.8 piercing damage type + 26.76 DPS plasma damage type. And altough Marines have 50% acc too... sergeant has 100%. so it's about 30.22 piercieng + 13 plasma DPS.

Against vehicles:
2 Lasercannons: 27.5 (together, with 50% acc each of course, so basicly 13.75 DPS should be counted).
Devastator Marines with Lasercannon: 33
Same armor piercieng damage type. So even when standing it's worse.

So... BB isn't good to kill anything enemies may throw at him. No defence mechanism (like Avatar's Khain Wrath, GUO Swarm of flies or Swarmlord both Leech essence or blade furry). 1 good ability which is main BB cannon, cause at least it hits unless blocked by 40cm fence. Demolisher cannon can be avoided, especially if it cannont be shot instantly and BB needs to turn, giving enemy a lot of time to move aside.

So I ask: WTF it is for? 2 Leman Russes does much more then him with about same cost. And they are still worse then stupid Predators. LR has (in TT, which this game came from) higher armor, better weapons and they are cheaper. And for every predator You can set on battlefield, I can set 3.
Here, Vanquisher cannon (which is one of the ultimate AV weapons in TT) does 1.5 DPS less then Looted tank. With only 11 more range.

In conclusion: IG is the most underpowered, unthought race in game, especially in 3v3, with all it's spirit and game type lost with transition from TT.

Can't mass enough like it should, filling out the lack of fire power and heavy armors.
Fragile, die like flies, but that is normal for IG.
Almost impossible to counter turrets at T1. Not easy in T2, but manageable. Or 2 heavy bolters for that matter.
No superiority in vehicles, in which IG excel.
Anyone can defeat it with melee oriented troops. Only counter: catachans, good, I admit, can stop even assault marines. But loosing every model except one with ASM cost You 166/16, with Stormboyz 160/16, while the same combat will leave catachans probably only with sergeant and granade launcher model, which cost me 200/20 to reinforce. Banshees won't cost any power, altough they might do not as much damage, stopped by shotgun ability.

And I set only, cause before You get to Ogryns, You probably got Your power wiped, You're losing dramatically in points and enemy has leveled up his units, has more resources, so even if You got them, You are outnumbered and outgunned.

Bugged HWT also doesn't help.
As well often Manticore bug shots.

In fact Manticore and Ogryns are only good units in IG army in this game. Both on T2.
If enemy is good, Manti will die in about 2 minutes after it fires first time.
IG will build meltas, SM can teleport his FC with powerfist or jump in with assaults and melta bomb it.. Orks will barrage it with tankbustas. Eldars can go into base with wraithguards. Chaos can run with Bloodcrusher, teleport with Bloodletters or simply walk with Plague Marines. Only Tyranids might have problem, but Tyrant Guard or Hive Tyrant can do the job.

With Ogryns situation is a bit better. I don't know what exactly domino effect does, but after it got changed, hlaf the time, half the squad is lying on the ground instead of fighting, when facing any good-melee opponent.

I know that it is not the most important army for GW, cause most players are so excited to play genetically mutated supersoldiers or they even more packed up buddies from the dark side of the force, but really... is that hard to make it work as it should?

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# 2Rokco Mar 16 2012, 09:59 AM
It's huge cannons make all ranged av useless (450 damage almost 1 hits tanks, 400 damage 1 hits setup teams and the like) which makes up for its mediocre passive dps.

It's almost unkillable with a repair bunker and can just sit defending a VP.

It's a long ranged defensive tank, it's speed and 50% fotm signify its meant to stay still, not be offensive.

It is hugely tough and very tough to deal with be some armies. Needs heavy melee or long ranged artillery to kill, ie nobz or manticore. Non FS eldar and non FC Space Marines have tough time dealing with it with only banshees and ranged termies respectively.


No comment on the rest of the stupid rant.

This post has been edited by Rokco: Mar 16 2012, 10:04 AM
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# 3Tsototar Mar 16 2012, 10:57 AM
QUOTE(Rokco @ Mar 16 2012, 17:59 PM) *
It's almost unkillable with a repair bunker and can just sit defending a VP.


yes. original poster is saying that Avatar and GUO are "tanks" for damage, which is what I see the BB as, with the advantage that it is repairable, unlike Avatar and GUO, and on top of that it cannot be kited like the avatar and GUO (plus the damage output of the BB isn't quite as bad as the original poster seems to think?).
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# 4Mishkaxxx Mar 16 2012, 11:22 AM
swarmlord is crap by the way tongue.gif
fex is much better option, hits the field much earlier and more effective than swarmlord in combat.
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# 5Gokkel Mar 16 2012, 11:28 AM
I also want to mention that the Baneblade seems to have no problems to hit stuff attacking it in melee with its abilities besides having a minimum range, just like all other stuff in this game with minimum range. At least my stuff gets killed by BB abilities while attacking in melee often enough.

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# 6UBER_CHOMIK Mar 16 2012, 11:41 AM
@ Rokco: Funny, that devastator laser cannon has longer range then BB main cannons. (65 to 44)
But bunker itself is easy to deal with. Granade or flamer and You get inside it instead of the BB owner.
Any Eldar can kill it easily with D-Cannons and/or wraithguards. Helping themselves with WSP immoblizing granade.
SM? Techmarine granade + mentioned higher, lasercannons. ASM with melta bombs. Dreadnoughts. Vendred.

@ Tsototar: yes, You can kite Avatar and GUO. Which means You are getting shot by rest of Eldar/Chaos army, cause You are busy kiting their tank. You do not need kite BB, so after it shots his cannons You have 30 seconds to take it down or at least damage it and get close range.

As far for damage: I gave You pure numbers. Your opinion is that it is not bad. My opinion is, that it is terrible. I respect Yours, but I can have different one.

@ Rokco again: I just love when people value the text with comments instead reffering to information in it.
Would it kill You to hold some level of culture and just say "I won't comment the rest of the post, with which I disagree"?

Because, You know, I am aware of the fact, that different people can have different opinions. And maybe in Yours BB is the ultimate weapon of destruction. That's what forum is for. To discuss. Maybe I can show You my perspective.
I have played DoW II 1213 hours. 909 in Retribution. I've played about 700 games as IG. I play almost only 3v3. My ELO is around 3000, cause I play also for fun with randoms.
Of course there are a lot of players that did more and are better. My point is - the fact, that I have different opinion, doesn't mean I'm stupid.

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# 7UBER_CHOMIK Mar 16 2012, 11:49 AM
QUOTE(Gokkel @ Mar 16 2012, 11:28 AM) *

I also want to mention that the Baneblade seems to have no problems to hit stuff attacking it in melee with its abilities besides having a minimum range, just like all other stuff in this game with minimum range. At least my stuff gets killed by BB abilities while attacking in melee often enough.


If You manouver a bit, You are able to hit melee hitters in front of BB, with Demolisher. If You hit it as close minimum range You can, they can be cought in a blast radius. And if big group is hitting him, and some models move a bit outside min range and BB player is carefull and notice that, he can target that squad with main cannon.

But probably what happened was, that on approach, BB player commanded main cannon to fire, but it was turned away. It will fire on You when faced the chosen squad, even in melee combat already, cause order was set earlier. It will have cooldown and won't be able to do that trick again though.

Of course it can also be a bug. Game is full of them.

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# 8Rokco Mar 16 2012, 13:37 PM
900 in Retribution. 3600 Elo in 3v3, but that means nothing, I play 1v1.

Lol WG vs BB. Good luck. And good luck trying to get a Dreadnought through the Imperial Guard lines, and gl getting a TM up so close. Orbs are great, but walking up to the BB though 2x plasma fire, HWT, hero, ST, Orgyns, etc is nigh impossible.

But it's not that I disagree with your post, it's that a lot of it makes no sense and that it's a huge rant

On the rest of your "post" then that I disagree with - Imperial Guard have the 2nd best tier 2 in the game, after Chaos. Every unit they have are very strong
OpTroopers one of the best AV in the game, or can be a good versatile squad to buy if you float req.

Chimera with huge dps and great Guardsmen synergy.

Manti being the best artillery in the game, especially in 3v3.

Orgyns being hugely tough, high damage, fast, SHI, as cheap as Dreadnought but far better.
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# 9Mishkaxxx Mar 16 2012, 23:09 PM
Rokco stop feeding that troll
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# 10badsyntax Mar 16 2012, 23:42 PM
QUOTE(Mishkaxxx @ Mar 16 2012, 01:22 AM) *

swarmlord is crap by the way tongue.gif
fex is much better option, hits the field much earlier and more effective than swarmlord in combat.



TRUE. Swarmlord sucks now after nerfing because "it killed a lot of shit".
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# 11Tsototar Mar 17 2012, 00:35 AM
QUOTE(UBER_CHOMIK @ Mar 16 2012, 19:41 PM) *

@ Tsototar: yes, You can kite Avatar and GUO. Which means You are getting shot by rest of Eldar/Chaos army, cause You are busy kiting their tank. You do not need kite BB, so after it shots his cannons You have 30 seconds to take it down or at least damage it and get close range.

As far for damage: I gave You pure numbers. Your opinion is that it is not bad. My opinion is, that it is terrible. I respect Yours, but I can have different one.


1. IG doesn't have to only have the BB as the entire army too. Just as there's the rest of the army to fight whatever's trying to take down the Avatar, there's also the rest of the IG army to protect the baneblade (manticore + BB is a very hard combo to deal with). I have to use my Avatar very carefully or I'll definitely lose it in most fights.

don't forget that with snares, an Avatar and GUO is essentially incapacitated because a melee unit that is slowed is basically useless. a snared baneblade (except Eldar haywires) is still dangerous.

I just had a really tough game on Judgement of Carrion against favoured opponents where we managed to kill almost every tough unit on the other side (terminators etc.), except for the baneblade which we couldn't take down.

2. BB damage is fine because it's going to live long enough to hit things more than once.

if you're having a lot of problems with the baneblade, I'm suspecting you might be using it wrong. I meet a lot of IG players who try to "rush" to a baneblade, expecting it to solve all their problems. This almost never happens. If you're fighting an entire army with one baneblade, you will have problems. The baneblade is meant to be the unit you roll out to seal the enemy's fate, after you've been either dominating, or at least holding your own, the whole game. It is not the unit that shows up to save you after you've been losing the entire game (possibly because you're forgoing T2 etc. units to try to get a BB "as soon as possible").

Dev lasguns having longer range - it's meant to be like that. A baneblade - like every other superunit - is meant to be killable. A baneblade with the kind of specs you seem to want for it would be game imbalancing. whoever who rolls out a baneblade first would win. Is that how you think it should be? This is not that kind of game.
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# 12Mor2ton Mar 18 2012, 18:12 PM
QUOTE(Mishkaxxx @ Mar 16 2012, 23:09 PM) *

Rokco stop feeding that troll


And people wonder later why comunity for this game is so small. Every new person is called a n00b instead of newbie and anyone with his own opinion is called troll by simply speaking outloud what he thinks. Instead of poiting why you disagree it's just much better to call people trolls yeah.


@UBER_CHOMIK
In retribution beta there were much more powerfull version of each superunit. LR had supression and flamers with insane dmg plus heal aura which was much better than base heal. Same goes for BB it had much faster supression with his bolters, and also higer dmg on them, his 2 main weapons alo had higer dmg. All of this was overpowered and relic tryed to balanced it over last year to the point we got now.

I think they did rather great job with balancing super units. I can agree with you that BB design is a bit silly as it supossed to have quote : "11 barrels of hell" but currently only 2 of them actually can do same damage and rest is just eye candy. As animation of bolter bullets shows them as quite large, they do less dmg than basic infrantry like tacticals, so this visual effect can lead people to mistakes.

Main cannon and demolisher cannon:
Very good weapons with reasonable cooldown, only withdraws i can think of are terrain obstacles, like small maps with stairs, some trees, which can lead to all his ablities missfire and mega pacthing issues. Thats just how it works in this game: predator shells will missfire into stairs, when fire prison can fire through it without problem. So it's all about postitioning units before battle begins.

I only see one big issues with this units:
Main cannon following targets like mad, so it will try to aim fc teleported behind it, while in same time you are trying to shoot predator coming from front. I dont really see a need to follow targets for a cannon without autofire.
Also his cannon doesnt come back to default position after battle and player cant change it position manualy when there is no enemy in sight. So i would only like to see this thing fixed as it doesnt allow player to use tank as a it supossed to be. For example after last battle my main cannon is turned by 180 degree, how am I supossed to position BB, rear armor to enemy or front amor and wait 1 min before it turns.

How to fix it: increase turret rotation and make it go to default position when there is no enemy in sight.

Also i would consider increasing his fotm to 60-70%.

There is also bug connected with his main cannon allowing to fire twice without much cooldown it happens on rare occasion and obviously i wont tell here how to do it.

This post has been edited by Mor2ton: Mar 18 2012, 21:16 PM
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# 13Fist All Life Apr 8 2012, 20:42 PM
QUOTE(badsyntax @ Mar 16 2012, 23:42 PM) *

TRUE. Swarmlord sucks now after nerfing because "it killed a lot of shit".

No it was reinstated exactly as it was before the nerf at 2000 HP.

It still sucks ass from a straw though... It's worse than a 'Fex and overlaps way too much in its role.

Ė Change armor type to Super Heavy Infantry
Ė Increase hit points from 2000 to 6050
Ė Scale Life Leech (is that what it's called?) ability if necessary

Possibly also transfer Spawn Ripper Swarm ability from Thornback 'Fex to SL?

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# 14Nuclear Arbitor Apr 9 2012, 02:19 AM
making it SHI would be a general nerf, it'd be hurt by everything it's hurt by now at least as much and power melee, think LC termies, would take it apart.

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# 15Commissar Crunch Apr 9 2012, 02:42 AM
In conclusion: IG is the most underpowered, unthought race in game, especially in 3v3, with all it's spirit and game type lost with transition from TT.(quote)

i laughed alot

As always people compare unit with another without looking at the army in the back ground. You can say whatever you want about LRR but sm donít have the capabilities to repair it compare to IG. You say avatar,guo,SL can be use aggressively, no, any snare stop them from doing all the dmg they could do nothing stop a baneblade except maybe nobs and ass terms , when baneblade is on the field nothing stop it. You also said IG doesnít have good unit except manticore and ogryns, WTF MAN, l2 use other stuff, itís not because they die easily and donít have chaos dps that they are bad. And I agree that lemon russ could get a buff but you donít look at the army again, you say looted tank got more dps, etc, looted tank doesnít have the same amount of hp and canít be repair like the lemon will.

this remember me of the ogryn up thread LOL
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# 16Moon Pine Apr 9 2012, 05:36 AM
I'm glad to see a price reduce on BB. But for it performance, I think there's nothing to buff, except maybe a moving accuracy buff - as it's slow enough to keeping moving.
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# 17Phoenixlight Apr 9 2012, 09:20 AM
The Baneblade is fine.

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# 18Fist All Life Apr 9 2012, 10:23 AM
QUOTE(Nuclear Arbitor @ Apr 9 2012, 02:19 AM) *

making it SHI would be a general nerf, it'd be hurt by everything it's hurt by now at least as much and power melee, think LC termies, would take it apart.

Which is why I also included an over 200 % HP increase. wink.gif

I am well aware that LC Termies would do more damage to it. So what? An even greater health increase is possible if proven necessary.

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# 19Asmon Apr 9 2012, 10:49 AM
I don't think Swarmlord does overlap with Carnifex role. A thornback Carnifex can be better than a swarmlord if you don't have a massive army around, cause it's what SL is for. Otherwise they have different purpose. Plus a Carnifex has 3 upgrades don't you know? 2 of them fulfill different roles than SL.

Another thing: don't respond on a 3 weeks old thread about IG to post a suggestion about SL. If it seems major to you then just create a new thread.

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# 20warp652 Apr 9 2012, 12:17 PM
This is just a QQ thread. IG isn't bad. They have the second best t2 in the game. Lemans beat looted any day especially with guardsmen repair. And you play 3v3, is there any superunit witch lasts more then half a minute if you have 3 armies ff it?
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