Dawn of War 2

TM -vs- CL, I'm alittle sad inside

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# 1RedRupee Apr 25 2012, 04:23 AM
Every so often I win this matchup, and it fills me with happiness, glee, and an overblown sense of my own tactical genius....but then I lose the next 5 and I remember that the only reason I won that first one at all is because I was playing someone who fell asleep at their keyboard.

Here's an example of me noobin' it up with Horus

No need to comment specifically on that game here, but that's just an example where I feel I didn't do anything terribly wrong, but just got rolled like it was my first game playing SM.

As TM I know a dev is a my best bet at trying to control the lumbering behemoth, but I feel like I have to devote half my army to keeping the CL from just doing whatever he pleases. And once you get a dev it appears to be so easy to just get GL tics to knock em around, and in T2 BL's make sloth-like devs want to just hang out in base for the rest of the game. It seems I have to invest alot in T1 to keep up with chaos shenanigans, but I'm always rather hesitant to spend much more than what is definitely necessary because that quick BC when you aren't ready for it is the quickest way to ruin your day.

If I can make it to T2 reasonably, things generally start to look alot better, but just getting that far sometimes is nigh on impossible.

Anyways, this is my most consistent worst matchup with TM. So any thoughts from TM/CL players would be appreciated.
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# 2ParanoidKami Apr 25 2012, 05:25 AM
From looking at your replay you never really had any good map control at all so your main problem is positioning. It's great to combine forces to pick off units, but you have to remember that while your combined forces was picking off that single unit the rest of his army was capping and maintaining map control. There's a balance that you always have to keep if you want to be on even ground with him. As for just in general things for positioning try to have your Scouts constantly harassing his Tics or capping, Tacs going against CSM's or helping out against Tics/CL, TM shooting things left and right without going in over his head, and Devs after CSM's and the CL. If he goes from grenade launchers always shoot and then move when you see him start the animation to fire back. If you can't see the animation fast enough just get a feeling of the timing and go with it.

I'll dig up some replays in my folder and try to keep one of the heroes either a TM or a CL tongue.gif Would do all TM Vs. CL, but I don't got very many of them.

Attached File Chaos_Games.7z
Size: 558.39k
Number of downloads: 9

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# 3Carnevour Apr 25 2012, 11:25 AM
Plasma gun and Libby.
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# 4RedRupee Apr 25 2012, 21:27 PM
Thanks for the replays Kami, I'll be sure to check those out tonight before I hop into some matches.

Positioning was definitely my key issue, continuously sending wrong squads to the wrong locations, and not utilizing my dev correctly, though I was being paranoid that my farm was going to get hit (not that he needed to push it having the rest of the map under control).

I've been finding myself stressing getting my power up in time and investing alot in keeping up in tech with my enemy, but I've been seeing people tending to go much heavier T1 these days, but a req heavy 2tic2csm build means they aren't going to have thier farm filled right away. So I should try to track my opponent's power expenditure abit more closely too instead of dreading the fast BC (I think I just never got past the horrors of early CR), allowing myself to grab a big T1 to match what my enemy has.

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# 5Tarik Torgaddon Apr 26 2012, 09:55 AM
Ofc start with tac scout.

If 2 or more heretics, then bionics and maybe a shotgun scout but id rather get the sarges.

If 2 csms then dev.

If havok then asm.

Then it just comes down to who plays better.

Oh yeah and get mark target in T2 to f;)cus f;)re stuff like CL and BLs faster

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# 6Nuclear Arbitor Apr 26 2012, 10:16 AM
lol. omg, BLs! they're invulnerable and coming towards me! just add mark target. lololol

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# 7RedRupee Apr 26 2012, 18:18 PM
Haha, does Mark Target make BLs take damage while phased?

Yea Tarrick, I prefer sarges myself when I can, just makes it easier to add scout DPS to CL kiting (of course 'nades and bleed reduction as well). Though I definitely need to remember to grab signum more often, becuase I tend to get artificers and just stick with it through the end.
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# 8ParanoidKami Apr 26 2012, 18:22 PM
Phased is just 100% less damage and Mark Target increases damage taken so it's just 100% minus whatever modifier you use on them. It's hilarious to see people running their "invulnerable" units in only to find out they sent them into the grinder tongue.gif

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# 9Phoenixlight Apr 26 2012, 18:45 PM
QUOTE(ParanoidKami @ Apr 26 2012, 18:22 PM) *

Phased is just 100% less damage and Mark Target increases damage taken so it's just 100% minus whatever modifier you use on them. It's hilarious to see people running their "invulnerable" units in only to find out they sent them into the grinder tongue.gif

Does that work the same for the Warlock, Inquisitor and Hive Tyrants' Invulnerability? I've never really noticed.

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# 10ParanoidKami Apr 26 2012, 18:47 PM
It's the same for all of them.

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# 11RedRupee Apr 26 2012, 20:39 PM
Haha, I always just assumed they had an "invunerable" state as opposed to just "reduce damage by 100%" state. I'll have to remember that.
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# 12Mor2ton Apr 26 2012, 21:46 PM
Are you sure it's same for INQ ? I often retreated my inq with invunerablity on(it works on retreat despite no visual effect) and she is not being healed when shoot at, like with disoriert field + retreat.
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# 13ParanoidKami Apr 26 2012, 22:50 PM
Ok, just tested this with Panzer and invul works now and must have been patched. It used to work as in you could just mark target something and they would take damage, but it seems invul units are just straight up invul including on retreat.

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# 14Nuclear Arbitor Apr 27 2012, 02:31 AM
afaik it works on certain units, like BLs, but doesn't on other, like the Warlock, because some of the "invulnerable" units just have -100% damage and some are actually immune.

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# 15Asmon Apr 27 2012, 16:17 PM
bC clearly stated in a previous patch that he fixed damage immunity, particularly SM under Angel of Death.

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# 16texaneous Apr 28 2012, 02:30 AM
I don't know if you have ever watched any of Kalzi4's TM replays, but I think he has a really good handle on the TM vs CL matchup. I know it sounds weird, but he goes 2 scouts into 3 devs. His build is actually beast mode vs CL imo because it stops the CL cold and makes his tacs largely ineffective for a long period of time. All that leaves you to deal with are tics/gl tics or NM's. But honestly, how often will chaos build NM against SM? Anyway, he gets shotguns and sarges heading into t2, holds a lot of map, converts at least 1 dev to las cannon, and then usually adds a razorback/libby/plasma dev.

I played against him as chaos, and I had a super fucking hard time against this strat.

Granted, I did win, but I seem to be a pretty lucky player, so you can probably chalk me down for "should have lost".

Point is, you might want to play around with it. TM works really well when he has that much protection.

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# 17ParanoidKami Apr 28 2012, 03:21 AM
Noise Marines are actually pretty good against a TM. They counter ranged and well you're going to be all ranged unless you go for a ASM. Not as good against Apo or FC though.

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# 18Nuclear Arbitor Apr 28 2012, 04:25 AM
bionics maybe. just force them to blow cacophony and focus fire; only thing you can do.

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# 19ParanoidKami Apr 28 2012, 06:14 AM
The default fire doesn't let you use abilities so bionics doesn't do a thing. Back when NM range was smaller they could just be taken down by crossfire or devs and now they counter ranged and devs. Other than ASM's snipers still work I guess. I've always hated NM as a TM, but never had any problems with them as FC or Apo.

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# 20RedRupee Apr 28 2012, 14:32 PM
Yea, NM are definitely frustrating as TM. I remember a game I went double dev, but CL had some 'nade tics and NM, and it was so difficult to scare them off, and if you don't say goodbye to your powerfarm....

Seems like if NM pop up you at least need a second tac to deal with them, just something else meeaty that can charge up and punch em, but leave you with reasonable DPS to pour into them if need be. Though ASM are obviously the best choice, I just hesitate to buy them after I already popped sarges/shotties and acouple devs. So they are most annoying when they come on the field just abit late in T1, because depending on what other power they've invested, going ASM could be abit detrimental to the tech race.
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