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5 Pio Sniper opening Vs. Brits.

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# 1gravemouth Feb 4 2013, 07:23 AM
Introduction.

The main idea behind this strategy is to constantly attack your opponent, seize map control and drain Manpower as much as possible in order to give yourself the XP needed for an even more effective Mid-game. This, however, is a very micro-intensive strategy that requires a very careful and wise Sniper play. With a few exceptions i will talk about later on, depending on the opponent's units and the map, the build goes as it follows:

Early game.

- 4 pioneers out of the HQ straight up, so you will have 5 in total. All of them leave the base to cap a decent, if not big portion of the map. Focus mostly on munition over fuel points super early in the game.
- Build the Wehrmacht quarters with the 4th and last pioneer coming out of your HQ.
- Wait for the 340 Manpower (it takes a few seconds after the building is done.) and queue the sniper.

Early Engaging and the Sniper.

- During the sniper is being built, you will meet your opponent's units in your capping process. Keep in mind a pioneer will nearly always be capable to beat an early Lieutenant in a 1v1 engagement, mid-close range. It is always worth hunting them down early and drain their health as much as possible. The first main engagement you will want to be fighting, however, is versus the Recon Section. This squad has the sniping ability, and it is most likely going to become the dog that chases the rat for so long as the Sniper lives. What you will want to do to be able to do a more than decent damage against this squad, is blob 3 of your pioneers, and put them in any cover there is available near you, light or heavy. You will also need close range. Put your guys on cover and in close range, and you will be able to deal at least 50% damage before you are forced to fully retreat, and basically that is all that matters. Retreating is perfectly fine with this strategy, what matters is deal as much damage as possible before retreating.

Master your sniper micro and make him as devastating as he can be.

- Which is the job of your Sniper? Be annoying. Snipe one guy, back off, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. In my opinion, this process is done very easily by using a Control Group for your sniper (CTRL + *number*), and by using attack move, cloak/uncloak, halt, hold-fire and retreat hotkeys as well. No matter what the situation is, you need to keep in mind two simple things. Move after firing, and shoot as often as the sniper is capable of. When you see the Recon Section coming near your sniper, you need to simply walk away from it uncloacked. When he stops moving or chasing your sniper, attack move and shoot again. You need to make sure he will be taking fire from your flamethrowers during he is trying to snipe him, that obviously will damage him even more. If you are forced to retreat a sniper for saving him from this ability so be it, but with more experience you will gain a sense of how far your sniper needs to be to avoid a Counter-Snipe.

- So long as you are only dealing with infantry, there is absolutely no problem at all. There is, however, one case where the build will have to change for your army to be safe, and that is the Bren carrier. If you see a Bren carrier during the Sniper is being queued and, is not almost complete, cancel the sniper and build 2 Motorcycles. Then after those are done, queue your sniper again. 2 bikes are relatively superior to the opponent's Bren carrier. what you want to do is attack move them and shoot the Bren carrier, use cover as much as possible even with the bikes, repair and try to at least to keep the thing at bay.

Vetting and attacking.

- At this point, you will be able to see what your opponent has been doing. What units he has already built, and most importantly where the HQ truck has parked. 1 or 2 pios have certainly retreated after a few minutes, being caught off-guard against bigger numbers. Build the Kampkraft Center with them, and purchase vet 1 support. Depending on your Munitions bank, you should be able to afford one or two flamethrowers as well. When vet 1 is done, purchase Vet 2 immediately. Every time your bank reaches 50 Munitions, you should be purchasing a new flamethrower.

After most of the capping is done, it is time to attack! Blob all the pioneers, with or without flamethrowers as best as you can, and send them to the spot the HQ truck has been parked at. Simply put them on cover, and burn stuff up. If there is nothing in his truck, then focus the truck with your flamers. 2 flamethrowers will be able to burn it down in only a few seconds. He will be forced to retreat to defend his base, even if he is not there. When he is back to his base, flamethrowers will devastate him. Make sure to always retreat 1 man squads with flamer, especially with a Recon section close; a wise Brit player would always try to sneak-kill in this way. This sort of firepower, of course, is always backed by your Sniper. Shooting those men can only be painful for his Manpower. Always make sure you apply as much Manpower damage as possible before retreating. Reinforce, and then repeat exactly the same attack again, and again.

Mid game Teching.

- After the Vet 2 support, you should be teching to T2 ASAP, and make 2 paks.
- Blitzkrieg is the Doctrine you will be using for this game, and reaching to the 4 CP StuH is the main goal.
- Purchase Vet 1 for tanks after the 2 paks are done. This will make your StuH's a bit more durable.

- At this point, it really is more optional. Since you are basically relying on your Paks for AT against the upcoming (most likely) Stuart, you should as well be using mines around a Pak position or a choke point. Mining your t2 building's entrance is never a bad idea either. You should be sending your flamer blob over and over again to his base, untill you have those 4 CP's needed to get a StuH. And this is where you will truly have winning potential.

The winning Aggression.

The main weakness of a StuH is some sort of AT form, not necessarily PIAT, but mostly an AT emplacement, or a Sherman Firefly, less likely. Once you have cleared the way out of the StuH's weaknesses, the game is pretty much over. AT emplacements are stupidly easily cleared by flamethrowers, so it really shouldn't be any problem at all clearing them out. Sherman firefly is relatively weak against the AT of your own, which is the Paks, and calling in a Stormtrooper squad with 2 chrecks, or a Gren squad likewise can make it a bit easier to deal with fireflies, or even Staghounds and Cromwells. If AT emplacements and Fireflies are out of the way, the Piats alone cannot really do enough damage to actually kill a StuH. The Piat rounds are easy to dodge, by simply backing off with the vehicle, about the same way you would dodge a grenade with a Rifle squad. Besides, Piats will not stand on your way for long with the flamethrower and sniper support.
Calling a second StuH will sure devastate the British infantry, and they will not be able to stand for long before they are completely annihilated.

Some necessary Alternatives.

This is a strategy that gives you the tools you need to drain as much Manpower as possible, however it does not give you suppressive capabilities. This can bring you to slight disadvantages, such as inability of holding important strategic points that connect the rest of your territory. I believe there is no such problem in maps like Sturzdorf and Wrecked train, however cutoffs like the one in North Angoville, or north Langres can give massive advantages on the British player, if you do not react properly and deny them. Hence, this strategy will change slightly on Angoville and Langres.

What basically changes, is that you will slightly delay your teching in order to build a bunker right in front of your strat point. So, when starting in Angoville or Langres (no matter which side), the build will be this:

- 4 pioneers out of the HQ straight up, so you will have 5 in total. All of them leave the base to cap a decent, if not big portion of the map. Focus mostly on munition over fuel points super early in the game.
- Hold your position with the 4th and last pioneer coming out of your HQ.
- Right after capping the main cutoff point, use the 2 Pioneers nearest to it and build a bunker facing towards it.
- Build the Wehrmacht quarters with the 4th and last pioneer coming out of your HQ.
- Wait for the 340 Manpower (it takes a few seconds after the building is done.) and queue the sniper.

- From South Langres the cutoff you will be putting the bunker on is on the left.
- From North Angoville, it will be obviously on the left.
- From South Angoville, it will be on the right.

Once the bunker is done, you simply pay the first 50 Munitions for an MG upgrade, instead of a quick flamethrower. The munitions income is pretty solid anyways, so i don't believe it will make much of a difference in your future firepower.

EDIT: Here are a few replays i found, most of them played a few months ago.

Attached File britr8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 552.69k
Number of downloads: 72
Player Name Side Team
TankLover 1
MWGravemouth 2


Attached File britfagr8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 512.65k
Number of downloads: 43
Player Name Side Team
JJAlan 1
SpartanEliteTraining 2


Attached File jother8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 355.79k
Number of downloads: 44
Player Name Side Team
jothe 1
MWGravemouth 2


Attached File 5_pio_sniper_4r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 327.17k
Number of downloads: 39
Player Name Side Team
MacPain 1
MWGravemouth 2


Attached File 5_pio_sniper_r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 307.53k
Number of downloads: 45
Player Name Side Team
happyPPJJ 1
MWGravemouth 2


Attached File 5_pio_sniper_1r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 382.11k
Number of downloads: 43
Player Name Side Team
GomTvNetProducer 1
ZessGR 2


Attached File 5_pio_sniper_2_r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 313.32k
Number of downloads: 38
Player Name Side Team
PantherPunch 1
ZessGR 2


Attached File 5_pio_sniper_3r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 336.24k
Number of downloads: 42
Player Name Side Team
MizuUmi 1
ZessGR 2






Thanks for the time you spent here reading this or viewing my replays, and please ask me questions about it smile.gif

Regards, Gravemouth.


This post has been edited by gravemouth: Feb 5 2013, 00:31 AM

Posts: 437

Game: Company of Heroes


+
# 2TheEldarPlayer Feb 4 2013, 18:14 PM
QUOTE(gravemouth @ Feb 4 2013, 07:23 AM) *

The main idea behind this strategy is to constantly attack your opponent, seize map control and drain Manpower as much as possible in order to give yourself the XP needed for an even more effective Mid-game. This, however, is a very micro-intensive strategy that requires a very careful and wise Sniper play. With a few exceptions i will talk about later on, depending on the opponent's units and the map, the build goes as it follows:

- 4 pioneers out of the HQ straight up, so you will have 5 in total. All of them leave the base to cap a decent, if not big portion of the map. Focus mostly on munition over fuel points super early in the game.
- Build the Wehrmacht quarters with the 4th and last pioneer coming out of your HQ.
- Wait for the 340 Manpower (it takes a few seconds after the building is done.) and queue the sniper.

- During the sniper is being built, you will meet your opponent's units in your capping process. Keep in mind a pioneer will nearly always be capable to beat an early Lieutenant in a 1v1 engagement, mid-close range. It is always worth hunting them down early and drain their health as much as possible. The first main engagement you will want to be fighting, however, is versus the Recon Section. This squad has the sniping ability, and it is most likely going to become the dog that chases the rat for so long as the Sniper lives. What you will want to do to be able to do a more than decent damage against this squad, is blob 3 of your pioneers, and put them in any cover there is available near you, light or heavy. You will also need close range. Put your guys on cover and in close range, and you will be able to deal at least 50% damage before you are forced to fully retreat, and basically that is all that matters. Retreating is perfectly fine with this strategy, what matters is deal as much damage as possible before retreating.

- At this point, you will be able to see what your opponent has been doing. What units he has already built, and most importantly where the HQ truck has parked. Is it an additional tommy section with a Bren gun upgrade? Is it an LT and an additional section? So long as you are only dealing with infantry, there is absolutely no problem at all. There is, however, one case where the build will have to change for your army to be safe, and that is the Bren carrier. If you see a Bren carrier during the Sniper is being queued and, is not almost complete, cancel the sniper and build 2 Motorcycles. Then after those are done, queue your sniper again. 2 bikes are relatively superior to the opponent's Bren carrier. what you want to do is attack move them and shoot the Bren carrier, use cover as much as possible even with the bikes, repair and try to at least to keep the thing at bay.

- 1 or 2 pios have certainly retreated after a few minutes, being caught off-guard against bigger numbers. Build the Kampkraft Center with them, and purchase vet 1 support. Depending on your Munitions bank, you should be able to afford one or two flamethrowers as well. When vet 1 is done, purchase Vet 2 immediately. Every time your bank reaches 50 Munitions, you should be purchasing a new flamethrower.

- Which is the job of your Sniper? Be annoying. Snipe one guy, back off, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. In my opinion, this process is done very easily by using a Control Group for your sniper (CTRL + *number*), and by using attack move, cloak/uncloak, halt, hold-fire and retreat hotkeys as well. No matter what the situation is, you need to keep in mind two simple things. Move after firing, and shoot as often as the sniper is capable of. When you see the Recon Section coming near your sniper, you need to simply walk away from it uncloacked. When he stops moving or chasing your sniper, attack move and shoot again. You need to make sure he will be taking fire from your flamethrowers during he is trying to snipe him, that obviously will damage him even more. If you are forced to retreat a sniper for saving him from his Counter Snipe, so be it, but with more experience you will gain a sense of how far you really need to be for it to never happen.

After most of the capping is done, it is time to attack! Blob all the pioneers, with or without flamethrowers as best as you can, and send them to the spot the HQ truck has been parked at. Simply put them on cover, and burn stuff up. If there is nothing in his truck, then focus the truck with your flamers. 2 flamethrowers will be able to burn it down in only a few seconds. He will be forced to retreat to defend his base, even if he is not there. When he is back to his base, flamethrowers will devastate him. Make sure to always retreat 1 man squads with flamer, especially with a Recon section close; a wise Brit player would always try to sneak-kill in this way. This sort of firepower, of course, is always backed by your Sniper. Shooting those men can only be painful for his Manpower. Always make sure you apply as much Manpower damage as possible before retreating. Reinforce, and then repeat exactly the same attack again, and again.

- After the Vet 2 support, you should be teching to T2 ASAP, and make 2 paks.
- Blitzkrieg is the Doctrine you will be using for this game, and reaching to the 4 CP StuH is the main goal.
- Purchase Vet 1 for tanks after the 2 paks are done. This will make your StuH's a bit more durable.

- At this point, it really is more optional. Since you are basically relying on your Paks for AT against the upcoming (most likely) Stuart, you should as well be using mines around a Pak position or a choke point. Mining your t2 building's entrance is never a bad idea either. You should be sending your flamer blob over and over again to his base, untill you have those 4 CP's needed to get a StuH. And this is where you will truly have winning potential.

The main weakness of a StuH is some sort of AT form, not necessarily PIAT, but mostly an AT emplacement, or a Sherman Firefly, less likely. Once you have cleared the way out of the StuH's weaknesses, the game is pretty much over. AT emplacements are stupidly easily cleared by flamethrowers, so it really shouldn't be any problem at all clearing them out. Sherman firefly is relatively weak against the AT of your own, which is the Paks, and calling in a Stormtrooper squad with 2 chrecks, or a Gren squad likewise can make it a bit easier to deal with fireflies, or even Staghounds and Cromwells. If AT emplacements and Fireflies are out of the way, the Piats alone cannot really do enough damage to actually kill a StuH. The Piat rounds are easy to dodge, by simply backing off with the vehicle, about the same way you would dodge a grenade with a rifle squad. Besides, Piats will not stand on your way for long with the flamethrower and sniper support.
Calling a second StuH will sure devastate the British infantry, and they will not be able to stand for long before they are completely annihilated.

This is a strategy that only gives you the tools you need to drain as much Manpower as possible, however it does not give you suppressive capabilities. This can bring you to slight disadvantages, such as inability of holding important strategic points that connect the rest of your territory. I believe there is no such problem in maps like Sturzdorf and Wrecked train, however cutoffs like the one in North Angoville, or north Langres can give massive advantages on the British player, if we do not react properly and deny them. Hence, this strategy will change slightly on Angoville and Langres.

What basically changes, is that you will slightly delay your teching in order to build a bunker right in front of your strat point. So, when starting in Angoville or Langres (no matter which side), the build will be this:

- 4 pioneers out of the HQ straight up, so you will have 5 in total. All of them leave the base to cap a decent, if not big portion of the map. Focus mostly on munition over fuel points super early in the game.
- Hold your position with the 4th and last pioneer coming out of your HQ.
- Right after capping the main cutoff point, use the 2 Pioneers nearest to it and build a bunker facing towards it.
- Build the Wehrmacht quarters with the 4th and last pioneer coming out of your HQ.
- Wait for the 340 Manpower (it takes a few seconds after the building is done.) and queue the sniper.

- From South Langres the cutoff you will be putting the bunker on is on the left.
- From North Angoville, it will be obviously on the left.
- From South Angoville, it will be on the right.

Once the bunker is done, you simply pay the first 50 Munitions for an MG upgrade, instead of a quick flamethrower. The munitions income is pretty solid anyways, so i don't believe it will make much of a difference in your future firepower.

I will be attaching replays of me playing this strategy very soon.

Thanks for the time you spent here reading this, and please ask me questions about it smile.gif

GraveMouth really your like an Artis who took the infamous pio spamm and, you just changed the paintings only really, you didnt come up with something new, the thing is every top Wehrmacht nowadays doesnt give a shit about British, there are 100000000000000 thing we can do we kick thos tommies butt, the only struggle I find in a matchup vs British, is not how to crush him but, the THING IS which strategy which BO, should I use to kick his butt, on Langres, just schwimm MG schwimm MG, T2 pak gren medic bunker ftfl spamm=GG
on angoville 4 pio start wire map cap map, V/Bike/MG/S T2 , you can gren spamm or, Stuh pak combo spamm, I dont know stall at least you get T4, on Semois and other maps, well its just how creative you are:tongue.gif

So my point is the Wehrmacht family doesnt need any more strategies just to complicate and, make our lives harder in a game vs British, okay I am in a match vs a Brit, which strategy should I use to beat him, hmmm should I just T2 quickly and Gren spamm, what should I do what Should I do???? But really if you want an Auto win strategy vs British on anymap any situation, just do the followings.
4x pios opener, cap map wire mapm, 4th pio build WQ Schim/Bike MG+MG Vet2 support
T2 2 Paks 1 Sniper 1 Gren 1 Stuh Creep=GG.

2X pio WQ Bike /V /V /S---> T2 Gren pak T3 Stuh.STUG.STUG

2pios V/MG/V/MG/V T2 gren spamm,

2X Pios bike MG bike MG SNIPER T2 1pak Sturm(schrecked) vet 1 on support 1 additional Sturm(with shreck)vet 1 inf vet 2 inf---->Stuh, late game Tiger.

A matchup vs British is all about how creative the Wehrmacht player is in additiona, the amount of skills he has when it comes to adapt the situation.

Posts: 448


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# 3gravemouth Feb 4 2013, 21:01 PM
This strategy works exactly as i describe it in Wrecked train, Sturzdorf, and with the changes i mentioned it can easily be played on Angoville and Langres. I do not use this at all on Semois because it does not work there because of the inability to attack the Brit's base because they will always park the truck in from of the MG nest on the +10 fuel. I tend to use more mines over flamethrowers on that map. Also i did not mention Baeux Lowlands, because this map is a standard untick by the majority of the players, and i don't really have much experience on that map vs Brits to describe it and be sure it works. I have written this down so i can describe what really works for me, and which i believe that could work for others, that is the reason i wrote it down. I don't really feel i only changed the colors of the painting. The lack of MG gives an entirely different feeling on this strategy, which makes the Recon vs Sniper hunting something that seems advantageous for the British player, however gives you different advantages during this process, and seems much more fun to me too.

This post has been edited by gravemouth: Feb 4 2013, 21:07 PM

Posts: 437

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 4HSMASH Feb 4 2013, 23:38 PM
QUOTE(TheEldarPlayer @ Feb 4 2013, 10:14 AM) *

GraveMouth really your like an Artis who took the infamous pio spamm and, you just changed the paintings only really, you didnt come up with something new, the thing is every top Wehrmacht nowadays doesnt give a shit about British, there are 100000000000000 thing we can do we kick thos tommies butt, the only struggle I find in a matchup vs British, is not how to crush him but, the THING IS which strategy which BO, should I use to kick his butt

So my point is the Wehrmacht family doesnt need any more strategies just to complicate and, make our lives harder in a game vs British, okay I am in a match vs a Brit, which strategy should I use to beat him, hmmm should I just T2 quickly and Gren spamm, what should I do what Should I do????

A matchup vs British is all about how creative the Wehrmacht player is in additiona, the amount of skills he has when it comes to adapt the situation.


I believe you totally missed Grave's point of posting this encyclopedia. Everyone knows about piospam. A great portion of people on GR have read Tommy's piospam guide. Grave did not post all of this because he thought the top Wehrmacht players were not capable or aware of good piospam play against Brits. He posted this so others could understand how and why he uses certain tactics against Brits that are not elaborated very often or very clearly in other guides. I find it rather appalling that you fail to notice (or at least show that you notice) the excellent detail in which Gravemouth goes into what a Wehrmacht player should be doing at what point. This isn't your typical boring as hell "do this build order and you win" kind of deal.

Allow me to illustrate how helpful this guide can be. Take a new player for example. What distinguishes a "new player" from just a "player" to a "good player"? A new player can build units, capture territory, tech up, etc. A new player can follow a build order, but a player can use it well to his advantage. A good player can use a build order to his advantage and then know what to do at every step of the way. If a wrench is thrown into the build order (say the sniper dies), then neither the new player or the player is likely to respond to this change of plans as well as the good player can.

Now, how this guide relates to my illustration of players and their relative skill is the fact that everything is laid out. Every little detail is included. If you read a typical guide you are taught what to play not how to play. Grave here took the time to create this painstaking guide that shows players how to play. A player becomes better when he fully understands what he is doing and how he should execute it. That is the kind of guide Gravemouth wrote.

TL;DR - Gravemouth did not write a typical guide. Read it very carefully before you misinterpret his intentions.

Posts: 112

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 5QuagmireNL Feb 5 2013, 01:20 AM
Damn right Hulk smile.gif.

Posts: 466

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 6BartonPL Feb 5 2013, 01:22 AM
well written sir, but still we don't care sad.gif

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# 7gravemouth Feb 5 2013, 02:53 AM
You certainly cared enough to write this comment. =P

Posts: 437

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# 8Wehrmacht Oberleutnant Feb 5 2013, 03:41 AM
I have to say that while I agree that the biggest advantage Wehr has vs British early game is capping powerm which should be taken advantage of, 5 pios seems a bit much for most 1v1 maps and too much micro if you are sending them all over.

I prefer a 3 pio start, fast build WMQ and go 2 MGs. It really cripples British early on and from there unless you are seriously outplayed you should be golden.

Posts: 81

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 9gravemouth Feb 5 2013, 08:24 AM
Actually, i was using up to 7 or even 8 pioneers to t2 before i came up with this. Personally i feel super fine controlling all of them, with tactical map it really is no big deal. My goal with this is to deny myself suppression so i can be a bit more aggressive in his Manpower by luring my opponent on my sniper instead of luring him into an early MG. if you do not feel like playing with no MG, i find it absolutely sensible. I wrote this to give some people some information about what i do, and i hope some of you find this effective in your games as well.

Posts: 437

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 10piwawsky Feb 5 2013, 15:09 PM
I agree with 5 pios, Grave, but I don't really agree with going T1 at all against brits since BiB counters everything you can throw at him. Volks go down incredibly fast, so do mg when you flank it, bikes and even sniper when it is revealed. Still, sadly, best bet vs brits is going 5 pios (cap!), t2, gren spam

Posts: 1,784

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 11S73v0 Feb 5 2013, 15:53 PM
QUOTE(piwawsky @ Feb 6 2013, 01:09 AM) *

I agree with 5 pios, Grave, but I don't really agree with going T1 at all against brits since BiB counters everything you can throw at him. Volks go down incredibly fast, so do mg when you flank it, bikes and even sniper when it is revealed. Still, sadly, best bet vs brits is going 5 pios (cap!), t2, gren spam


Not true, T1 can comfortably hold their own against brits until T2. Fausts, mg and bikes can take down the bren carrier quickly or at least force it to activate repairs. T1 can easily destroy a brit in less than 10 mins or safely tech to T2 to finish the game. Imo T1 is better than running 8 low health pios in a cat and mouse game with the brits. But both strats work so it depends on what style you want to play.

Posts: 925

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# 12gravemouth Feb 5 2013, 19:28 PM
Lots of people go for t1 and have success with it. I have played with both old school pio spam to t2 and pio spam to t1, and i think both works fine if you can get a decent early game without losing much. It is all about who is going to play better really in the end.

Posts: 437

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# 13piwawsky Feb 7 2013, 13:02 PM
U will not have fausts until you tech to t2 which you will not be able to very early if you want to have some t1 units out and with it some unit presence and map control. And, as said...BiB can counter volk, MG and bike easily, especially if you add another tommy in the equation

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# 14gravemouth Feb 7 2013, 18:59 PM
If you disagree you disagree, 2 repairing bikes seem to work for me at killing a Bren carrier no matter with or with no bren. Obviously it's situational and you want to mostly engage it when it is alone, besides a BiB is always going to do some damage if played correctly, even if you completely skip t1, since pios alone won't stand a chance most likely. Really though, i can't find any sort of trouble especially with a few mines in where you can lure it at. I try to do my best at killing it, sometimes i do kill it with the bikes, some other times it will die when i first get my Paks.

Posts: 437

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# 15Porygon Feb 8 2013, 01:49 AM
5 Pio T1 sniper? You are really asking for a Bren in Bren

What if I tell you, assuming without mines, or mines doesn't hit at the right time, it is almost impossible to survive a sniper against BiB

Posts: 1,358

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# 16CommanderMe Feb 8 2013, 04:43 AM
i prefer an unupgraded bren. usually the bren upgrade is a waste of ammo.

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# 17GiveMeABreak Feb 8 2013, 12:41 PM

4 Pio's and 4-5 bikes into T2.


4 pios is still penty of cap power early, the bikes can zoom around and focus any squad or BC.


I find this allows for maximum aggression, because you can attack as soon as you have say 3 flamers. The bike do most of the early fighting and can be healed up before you attack.


I might try this skip T1 into gren spam, but I think I prefer the idea of having T1 than play cat and mouse with british early. I prefer to be the one making the moves.

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# 18Porygon Feb 8 2013, 19:04 PM
QUOTE(CommanderMe @ Feb 8 2013, 12:43 PM) *

i prefer an unupgraded bren. usually the bren upgrade is a waste of ammo.


I don't get it, vanilla Bren is useless

Posts: 1,358

Game: Company of Heroes


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# 19GoodToGo Feb 9 2013, 12:32 PM
First unit out of WQ is sniper? Good luck with that, any semi competent brit will put a recon in a bren and fuck your sniper up. In fact 5 pio T2 has fallen out of favor because all the brit has to do is spam infantry ---> cut off ----> camp like its 1999 ----> you are dead. On maps like Angoville, Langres, Wrecked Train, you are done for. On maps like Semois, Sturzdorf, Beaux Lowlands, you might get away with it.
The safe start versus brit is T1. Two bikes, 2 MG's THEN make a sniper or two depending on what opponent is doing. Also, please don't go volks, they suck hard versus brits (unless you want to feed the med bunker).

Posts: 338

Game: Company of Heroes 2


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# 20HSMASH Feb 10 2013, 01:18 AM
QUOTE(GoodToGo @ Feb 9 2013, 04:32 AM) *

On maps like Angoville, Langres, Wrecked Train, you are done for.


Oh, hey. Gravemouth happened to upload a number of replays on two of those maps. But I digress. Everyone seems to believe that a BiB (or even a recon in bren) will shut down this opening. Allow me to quote the original post:

QUOTE(gravemouth @ Feb 3 2013, 23:23 PM) *

If you see a Bren carrier during the Sniper is being queued and, is not almost complete, cancel the sniper and build 2 Motorcycles. Then after those are done, queue your sniper again. 2 bikes are relatively superior to the opponent's Bren carrier. what you want to do is attack move them and shoot the Bren carrier, use cover as much as possible even with the bikes, repair and try to at least to keep the thing at bay.


It seems to me that hardly anyone is paying attention to details like this in his guide. Really everyone is just touting their favorite build and not really giving the 5 pio open much thought. I would be more convinced if people would at least try Grave's build before just spilling more theory craft and favorite openings in this thread.

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Game: Company of Heroes


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