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Rise of the Witch King

Balance request

#1brabox  Dec 8 2016, 22:12 PM -
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I will use this replay as proof we need to remove heroes and powers from the game pls.

This is an RTS for god sakes, not an RPG or MOBA where you play around with a bunch of "heroes" and level them up. I avoid 3v3+ for this reason but now it seems it even happens in 1v1, the holiest of game-modes.

If we can't remove all heroes then at least Boromir please, the worst turd on the planet. I REFUSE to build King Dain just to counter him, it's silly. His stun lasts 30x as long as cloud break for some reason. This game has me loosing my cool so hard I can't even describe it.

Also all those damn powers that earn MORE POWERS
WTF
Tom freaking Bombadil, Army of the ***** Dead. BAN THIS SICK FILTH! How can these guys EARN YOU MORE PPS?! It doesn't even take any skill, you just cast AotD on an army and get 10PP for doing NEXT TO NOTHING.

I've lost this MU so many times to this type of ridiculous LAMING (I'm at a loss for words) it's not even funny. My play wasn't perfect, but it was 10x better than what Samurai had to show. I easily crushed him Gob vs Elf the match before.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGEEEEE

MU: me Dwarf, Samurai Men

This post has been edited by TheDestroyer001: Dec 14 2016, 19:42 PM
#2TaDa!  Dec 8 2016, 22:50 PM -
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Didnt see yet but if u lost this mu as dwarf then u did worse for sure or struggled lags if offhost. And about powers and heroes u just have to admit that this game was made for pure fun not for hard fair competitions. Choosing right powers, heroes and predicting enemies powers is a part of skill here and i doubt ppl will keep playing it without heroes and powers. U can try other rtses that are nice even without such "shits".
#3Platino  Dec 8 2016, 22:50 PM -
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I am going to see the replay. I will definitely agree at least on Boromir. It is not acceptable that Boromir's horn + the rain of arrows destroys you at every rush.
#4TaDa!  Dec 8 2016, 23:15 PM -
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Wubed. Boro is fine. U just didnt see him in 1 08 where he is cheapier, has splash and knock back. Thats why u so capricious biggrin.gif
This post has been edited by TaDa!: Dec 8 2016, 23:20 PM
#5brabox  Dec 8 2016, 23:33 PM -
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QUOTE
Wubed. Boro is fine. U just didnt see him in 1 08 where he is cheapier, has splash and knock back. Thats why u so capricious biggrin.gif

GG really? Just rewatched it and even after 12 min it's clear who should've won.
There's multiple moments when my opponent has literally nothing but heroes (and structures) on the field...

I think in v6.1 I would've won, though, so that's a good sign at least.
- no stupid lvl5 gondor archers going ridiculous dmg in lone towers
- dmg heroes and actually get some PPs


Edit: long stretch where I have 1000cp and he has ONLY LEVEL 1 FARMS (650cp) AND HEROES
This post has been edited by brabox: Dec 8 2016, 23:36 PM
#6MauHúR  Dec 8 2016, 23:35 PM -

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Ok heres my review:

The first thing I'd never recommend to do with Dwarves is to build the 3rd Mineshaft in your base. Going for a farm triangle exposes all of them a bit more, slows down your approach on the map and generally increases the chance of harassing troops dancing around them while your guardians try to catch up.

Next thing, you went for double Guardian first without even creeping the Warg lair immediately just to wait for your 3rd bat being phalanxes until you start being aggressive. So if youre not doing anything with your 1st batalion anyway, it couldve at least been Pikes right away so you can take the Troll+Inn or whatever, anything else is just a waste of time. If you start with Guardians then abuse the fact that Guardians rek SoGs as early as possible and dont let him get up the Archery Range without any pressure. Generally in all of your games the damage always came way too late cause it seems you felt insecure about moving in with 2 or less Guardians, but thats exactly what you should do.

I've watched all Dwarf vs. Men games youve upload so far and it seems youre not really realizing that the main problem of your playstyle is that you always add in Axethrowers and a 2nd Hall. Keeping the production of all these PBs going will massively delay you from getting to more lategame sustainable or PP efficient units like Brand, BWs and Gloin, so you shouldnt be surprised that MotW, who always did well going for heroes early in this MU, will get an sustainable advantage with things like HoG and LSs. Hell after being pushed back by Boromir your next move even was investing one more 1k into MoD, which are just more Horn and Faramir victims.

The Wagons were added when there already was too many counters for them (Faramir and 2 spear throws)and Blades was just another unwise investment(1500 + the countless individual upgrades) that will delay the useful stuff further. When you added one more range and hall it basically was like adding 2 more Gob caves vs a Lancer spam.

At the point when Men has 5 levelled up heroes a single Dain or Gloin is ofc also not gonna cut it anymore. This playstyle has a very fast decay timer on it aswell as a very small window of time in this MU when it can do viable damage, but ultimately its about keeping up with your opponents tech (which in RotWK is heroes and PP mostly).

Next time stay on one Hall, either creep the Troll as start or apply immediate pressure with Guardians, then add Forgeworks and use BW harassment as long as you can. Try to make a strong push with a Banner Wagon + Hobbit/MoD summon once you got there (wait for Horn to be used and then summon), add Brand somewhere in between there, then buy Gloin and THEN think about a 2nd infantry PB.
#7brabox  Dec 8 2016, 23:51 PM -
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QUOTE
Ok heres my review:

The first thing I'd never recommend to do with Dwarves is to build the 3rd Mineshaft in your base. Going for a farm triangle exposes all of them a bit more, slows down your approach on the map and generally increases the chance of harassing troops dancing around them while your guardians try to catch up.

Next thing, you went for double Guardian first without even creeping the Warg lair immediately just to wait for your 3rd bat being phalanxes until you start being aggressive. So if youre not doing anything with your 1st batalion anyway, it couldve at least been Pikes right away so you can take the Troll+Inn or whatever, anything else is just a waste of time. If you start with Guardians then abuse the fact that Guardians rek SoGs as early as possible and dont let him get up the Archery Range without any pressure. Generally in all of your games the damage always came way too late cause it seems you felt insecure about moving in with 2 or less Guardians, but thats exactly what you should do.

I've watched all Dwarf vs. Men games youve upload so far and it seems youre not really realizing that the main problem of your playstyle is that you always add in Axethrowers and a 2nd Hall. Keeping the production of all these PBs going will massively delay you from getting to more lategame sustainable or PP efficient units like Brand, BWs and Gloin, so you shouldnt be surprised that MotW, who always did well going for heroes early in this MU, will get an sustainable advantage with things like HoG and LSs. Hell after being pushed back by Boromir your next move even was investing one more 1k into MoD, which are just more Horn and Faramir victims.

The Wagons were added when there already was too many counters for them (Faramir and 2 spear throws)and Blades was just another unwise investment(1500 + the countless individual upgrades) that will delay the useful stuff further. When you added one more range and hall it basically was like adding 2 more Gob caves vs a Lancer spam.

At the point when Men has 5 levelled up heroes a single Dain or Gloin is ofc also not gonna cut it anymore. This playstyle has a very fast decay timer on it aswell as a very small window of time in this MU when it can do viable damage, but ultimately its about keeping up with your opponents tech (which in RotWK is heroes and PP mostly).

Next time stay on one Hall, either creep the Troll as start or apply immediate pressure with Guardians, then add Forgeworks and use BW harassment as long as you can. Try to make a strong push with a Banner Wagon + Hobbit/MoD summon once you got there (wait for Horn to be used and then summon), add Brand somewhere in between there, then buy Gloin and THEN think about a 2nd infantry PB.

Thanks for the review man, means a lot!

The first couple of points are good in theory I suppose but recently I'm having great success with 3-farm start with dwarf that way. It opens up nice eco and opportunities to take both flanks fast. Creeping means extra units out of the mine -> couldn't have defended vs those first soldiers.
I don't think my early game is the problem in this specific game.

Also, I don't see Brand or Gloin really doing much vs motw hero spam tbh. I refuse to build heroes just to build heroes because they're PP efficient.

But yeah you've identified the problem: keeping up with "tech". If motw can get money from eomer and consistently beat you in the PP front with heroes and their powers, there's little to gain in more harassing. The problem is I have no "game" when it comes to facing heroes tongue.gif I always ignore them and take down eco ^^
IMO it's not worth focusing on heroes if there are too many variables to take into account. They can flee (from Dwarves), use heal/athelas or some other power. The chance you actually take them out if you focus on them are small. And what do you gain? Like 0.5 PP for the effort.

About the "decay timer": That's why I get upgrades. Seems a solid idea vs hero spam and works almost always but not in this MU for some reason. Also I value blades for 1500 much more than Gloin walking around somewhere. He's not gonna do shit vs these motw heroes.

Also I could've easily gotten all heroes at one point, I had tons of money. However perhaps you're saying to get them sooner so they level up more easily?
#8Platino  Dec 8 2016, 23:52 PM -
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Imo

1. In general I Agree with Mahuhr
2. Boromir: the horn has a radius, a duration and a recovery time insane
3. Towers from PP are too difficult to destroy (with archers + rebuild is very very hard)
4. Imo u You have made many mistakes and the most relevant are: 1 not done mini heroes 2 not done Gimli 3 u have spammed excessively basic troops, they make leveling opponents heroes.


Anyway it was a good game smile.gif
This post has been edited by Platino: Dec 8 2016, 23:59 PM
#9TaDa!  Dec 8 2016, 23:55 PM -
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QUOTE
long stretch where I have 1000cp and he has ONLY LEVEL 1 FARMS (650cp) AND HEROES

But who u think will win - 650 cp of rohhirims or 1000 cp of archers?
#10TaDa!  Dec 9 2016, 00:02 AM -
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QUOTE

Also I could've easily gotten all heroes at one point, I had tons of money. However perhaps you're saying to get them sooner so they level up more easily?

Heroes arent neccesery. Even zealots arent neccesery to win motw even if he goes hero spam imo. Leave him heroes dont be greedy)
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