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CNC Zero Hour

[R} china v vs stealth

#1Reda B  Sep 10 2021, 20:25 PM -
Replays: 3
I was playing as china any tips to improve and what was my mistakes thanks
#2-NickName  Sep 15 2021, 07:59 AM -
My first review ever, on a 40 minute game. It says: keep it short and to the point. We all know that isn't going to happen.

The matchup was China (Juscophant0m) vs Stealth (HunEmpire) on Vendetta.

China opened with 2 supplies, a barrack and a war factory. The supplies were the ones in the back. From the barrack, a tank hunter was made and garrisoned a building in the middle.

Not a great opening for China. Barrack + tank hunter cost $800, the same prize as an outpost, but then you have 2 tank hunters and a unit to detect stealth (which is handy against stealth). Also it would have been better if the front supply was taken, when skipping the barrack, this would come up fast and a truck rush can be used. This would have been very powerful seeing the opening for stealth.

Stealth opened for 3 supplies, and didn't box them. A truck rush would have set back stealth big time. The tunnels were going up too late, 1 truck could have won the game already.

The first attack was done by stealth, a simple tech rpg harrassing the main supply. It got 1 truck, damaged another before it was cleared by China's gats. Meanwhile China had a second war factory up, and produced a dragon tank. Said flamer sneaked into the base, forced a selloff of a supply and took down a barrack before going down itself.

At 2.30, stealth dropped down a palace already. Quite fast, China made the propaganda center around 4.00.

China pushed through the middle wit gats and a single outpost. It got one tunnel, but another tunnel killed some units and China decided to go back. Meanwhile a Lotus was out, taking the oils. A more than welcome eco boom for China (at 6.00 minutes it had both oils, it took more than 20 minutes (!) before China got the third supply.

Another push by China forced stealth to sell of both arms dealers and this meant that stealth did not have any production, outside the barracks. An overlord joined the army, with the speaker tower and its upgrade, it was a good addition to the army. Stealth did not attack this, but went for the counter push. It had an arms dealer, almost near the China war factory. This could and should have been denied. Now the push did some good damage and killed 2 war factories and an airfield. China had to pull back with the forward army to clear this up.

After this, China clear up the base on the right near the oils. Another push by stealth got denied by some remaining units in China's base. China continued the push, destroying some defences and the palace. It took quite some units, and only an overlord survived. It took down a black market before it retrieved just in time (hijacker was coming). First hijacker for stealth, after 21 minutes. Same time the third supply went up for China, 2 major mistakes for both players.

China finally attacked the stronghold near its base and killed both arms dealers. It was not able to push any further, due to the many tunnels and stingers. After 33 minutes, a sneak attack took down some buildings from China, a welltimed sneak attack got some units too. At this time, it was already quite clear that China could not win it. Stealth had the eco and a big base, defended very well. China's last oils got destroyed, meaning it was out of eco. It took another 7 minutes before China realized its bad position before it surrendered.

Sloppy play, with quite some (major) mistakes by either player.
Juscophant0m: bad opening with the rax and single war factory. As China, you already had the weaker army. A forward supply with a truck rush would have put you in a good position, behind this attack 2 war factory spam could have keep up the pressure.

The 3rd supply was way too late. 21 minutes, against a better and/or more aggresive player, you wouldn't make it until 21 minutes. The supply on the left was also an option in the midgame, as it wasn't protected by any tunnels.

The unit choice from China was also not great. Gats are good vs quads and rpgs, but to clear up a base quickly, dragon tanks are the way to go. Spam them like crazy, make sure they won't get captured by hijackers, and you have a better time killing buildings. Also the lack of ecms in the late® game was a big mistakes. Without the ecms, your army got killed too easily.

Another important aspect is map awareness. You had stealth on his knees, but you allowed him to rebuild near your own war factory. This was another key moment, if this was denied early on, stealth would not have made a comeback.

HunEmpire: A risky opening with 3 supplies, it did pay off. However, it was quite vulnerable and a defending terrorist would be better for a truck rush. Luckily, this wasn't coming. The first hijacker was made after 21 (!) minutes. Hijackers are a great unit for stealth, and if there isn't an outpost, you can easily win the game with them. A single hijacker on the left war factory would have captured the flamer, and that flamer could wiped out the whole base.

A quick palace after 2.30 is risky, but with the 3 supplies, it wasn't that bad of a choice. 3 barracks were made, 2 arms dealers were up also. However, no busses were produced. Seeing the units from China (mainly gats), 1 or 2 busses would have wrecked the whole army. Also, you could have captured the oils before China did, or could have destroyed them right after (and not after 25/30 minutes, 1 oil gives $1,200 per minute. Having those oils survive for that long got him around $75,000).

Also a lack of aggression put you in a bad position. A tech rpg was the only attack after a counter push around 10 minutes. Seeing the amount of tunnels, you could have easily made 2 technicals with a few rpgs and take down the trucks. That would have lowered the spam from China, and from there you could have expanded your base, tech up etc.
#3Reda B  Sep 19 2021, 21:28 PM -
Replays: 3
QUOTE(-NickName @ Sep 15 2021, 07:59 AM)
My first review ever, on a 40 minute game. It says: keep it short and to the point. We all know that isn't going to happen.

The matchup was China (Juscophant0m) vs Stealth (HunEmpire) on Vendetta.

China opened with 2 supplies, a barrack and a war factory. The supplies were the ones in the back. From the barrack, a tank hunter was made and garrisoned a building in the middle.

Not a great opening for China. Barrack + tank hunter cost $800, the same prize as an outpost, but then you have 2 tank hunters and a unit to detect stealth (which is handy against stealth). Also it would have been better if the front supply was taken, when skipping the barrack, this would come up fast and a truck rush can be used. This would have been very powerful seeing the opening for stealth.

Stealth opened for 3 supplies, and didn't box them. A truck rush would have set back stealth big time. The tunnels were going up too late, 1 truck could have won the game already.

The first attack was done by stealth, a simple tech rpg harrassing the main supply. It got 1 truck, damaged another before it was cleared by China's gats. Meanwhile China had a second war factory up, and produced a dragon tank. Said flamer sneaked into the base, forced a selloff of a supply and took down a barrack before going down itself.

At 2.30, stealth dropped down a palace already. Quite fast, China made the propaganda center around 4.00.

China pushed through the middle wit gats and a single outpost. It got one tunnel, but another tunnel killed some units and China decided to go back. Meanwhile a Lotus was out, taking the oils. A more than welcome eco boom for China (at 6.00 minutes it had both oils, it took more than 20 minutes (!) before China got the third supply.

Another push by China forced stealth to sell of both arms dealers and this meant that stealth did not have any production, outside the barracks. An overlord joined the army, with the speaker tower and its upgrade, it was a good addition to the army. Stealth did not attack this, but went for the counter push. It had an arms dealer, almost near the China war factory. This could and should have been denied. Now the push did some good damage and killed 2 war factories and an airfield. China had to pull back with the forward army to clear this up.

After this, China clear up the base on the right near the oils. Another push by stealth got denied by some remaining units in China's base. China continued the push, destroying some defences and the palace. It took quite some units, and only an overlord survived. It took down a black market before it retrieved just in time (hijacker was coming). First hijacker for stealth, after 21 minutes. Same time the third supply went up for China, 2 major mistakes for both players.

China finally attacked the stronghold near its base and killed both arms dealers. It was not able to push any further, due to the many tunnels and stingers. After 33 minutes, a sneak attack took down some buildings from China, a welltimed sneak attack got some units too. At this time, it was already quite clear that China could not win it. Stealth had the eco and a big base, defended very well. China's last oils got destroyed, meaning it was out of eco. It took another 7 minutes before China realized its bad position before it surrendered.

Sloppy play, with quite some (major) mistakes by either player.
Juscophant0m: bad opening with the rax and single war factory. As China, you already had the weaker army. A forward supply with a truck rush would have put you in a good position, behind this attack 2 war factory spam could have keep up the pressure.

The 3rd supply was way too late. 21 minutes, against a better and/or more aggresive player, you wouldn't make it until 21 minutes. The supply on the left was also an option in the midgame, as it wasn't protected by any tunnels.

The unit choice from China was also not great. Gats are good vs quads and rpgs, but to clear up a base quickly, dragon tanks are the way to go. Spam them like crazy, make sure they won't get captured by hijackers, and you have a better time killing buildings. Also the lack of ecms in the lateŽ game was a big mistakes. Without the ecms, your army got killed too easily.

Another important aspect is map awareness. You had stealth on his knees, but you allowed him to rebuild near your own war factory. This was another key moment, if this was denied early on, stealth would not have made a comeback.

HunEmpire: A risky opening with 3 supplies, it did pay off. However, it was quite vulnerable and a defending terrorist would be better for a truck rush. Luckily, this wasn't coming. The first hijacker was made after 21 (!) minutes. Hijackers are a great unit for stealth, and if there isn't an outpost, you can easily win the game with them. A single hijacker on the left war factory would have captured the flamer, and that flamer could wiped out the whole base.

A quick palace after 2.30 is risky, but with the 3 supplies, it wasn't that bad of a choice. 3 barracks were made, 2 arms dealers were up also. However, no busses were produced. Seeing the units from China (mainly gats), 1 or 2 busses would have wrecked the whole army. Also, you could have captured the oils before China did, or could have destroyed them right after (and not after 25/30 minutes, 1 oil gives $1,200 per minute. Having those oils survive for that long got him around $75,000).

Also a lack of aggression put you in a bad position. A tech rpg was the only attack after a counter push around 10 minutes. Seeing the amount of tunnels, you could have easily made 2 technicals with a few rpgs and take down the trucks. That would have lowered the spam from China, and from there you could have expanded your base, tech up etc.



Thanks for this spectacular review very much appreciated ❤❤
#4fastAiR  Sep 20 2021, 20:16 PM -
Replays: 83 Game:
Awards:
I watched, and I will offer my opinion as well if you dont mind. I havent read Nicknames review as I dont want to be influenced by that, heres my thought on your play only (I didnt watch the gla).

- Work on ur supply placement, almost right but not perfect. You need to be fast at the start yes, but you have those supplys for a long time, maybe you saved 1 second at the start by putting it not perfect but ultimately lost two minutes across the life of the supply for the extra two seconds each truck takes.

- At your unsafe, you got mines before your second truck, maybe that was a misclick. When the second truck did come out, both trucks were collecting from the same supply. Send second truck to another pile

- A tech RPG came and attacked ur main supply, he hit mines but it survived, you ran away with your trucks to the other side, far away. You should have crushed those MDs with the trucks

- After you had your basic base setup, both your dozers sat together holding hands at the back of your base. You're lucky a second tech rpg didnt come, easy hunt

- Your sneaky dragon on the left, that worked well, but you could have easily lost it. Dont stop to engage that tunnel, drive past the tunnel and get the drgaon behind the supply at the bottom so the tunnel cant shoot it and if he pops anything it has to come through the flamewall. The supply is your target, not that tunnel, only engage the tunnel when he sees you and your dragon is going to die.

- When you were attacking middle you just had gatts and an outpost, take flamers as well, they are your best unit. Yes he has hijackers, just keep outposts and gatts near them. Gatts suck vs tunnels, and dragons are very annoying, you can force him through firewalls chasing you etc

- Good you got gatt up so quickly

- Send low health units home to heal

- Dont make ovies, Jarmen just owns it and they so slow and stupid. They derp around so much that vs bus or Jarmen, they are just useless, and will die before they even fire once. People make ovies when they dont want to float but dont know what to build (make infernos and ecms).

- You attacked his base with a fairly big push, and your lotus was there revealing buildings. But instead of capping his supply or any other building, she stood there while gatts shot the building very slowly. Cap is fastest, do it, especially for as supply

- Think about where you engage more, so this is during that big push still when he was very weak. He basically had a line of defence across the front of his base.
Attack from the side, not into the line where you are exposed to 3/4 base defences. If you come from the side you have a good concave and you are only vs one or two base defence at a time.
Really, think about this, its very important you could have won the game with this thought.

- Classic china mistake, GLA out maneuvered you. You pretty much ignored the flanks and pushed down mid to his main base. I dont have a problem with that, but you have to bunker the fck out of your flanks. China is shitty and slow, gla just needs to out maneuvre you and he did that, forcing you to retreat back, and chase him around, and that was without bus.
Drop some bunker there, literally shove 3 bunker and make a gatt if you want.Stealth cant do nothing at all vs that, and you can forget about that entire flank. In this instance you would have to bunker both flanks. (this was your biggest downfall)

- Spam flamers in mid/late game, people dont use hijackers as much after the start. Keep them with your army so they cant be stolen, but flamers are the best for clearing gla bases, literally dragon spam to kill the palace etc. He onyl has quads and maybe a bus, so mass flamewall hurts him alot. Let the dragons do the work and just guard the dragons with gatt outpoast and mig

- You took so long to take your 3rd supply

- You took ages to get BN, at this point of the game you had dragons and some infernos for a while

- When you finally got MiGs you couldnt see anything because he was stealth so you just started force firing the floor in random places. Lol, dont force fire its so terrible, it makes migs bug out and do stupid things. Use lotus or empty outposts to reveal targets for the migs, you could even run past a stinger with her to lure a quad pop and then mig the pop.

- You didnt get Migs for a while, get them faster tbh. And their job is to kill bus tbh, that is always highest priority. Espcially when you are attacking with your ground army like infenro etc, he will pop buses to kill infernos so you have to have the mig circling waiting for that. This guy didnt make many bus you were lucky

- Count yourself lucky he took so long to kill your oils

- After a while it was fairly obvious you would lose, as soon as he started out manuevering you. You ultimately spread yourself too thin in the end, and attacked in an unfocussed manner, not achieving anything, just attacking two places at once. At this late stage of the game you have to be focussed in what you want to achieve, but as I said earlier your demise really came from your exposed flanks.


I made notes as I watched so they are in order form what I saw. Its a hard match up, you look pretty decent, just fine details tbh.
This post has been edited by fastAiR: Sep 20 2021, 20:31 PM
#5Reda B  Sep 21 2021, 13:48 PM -
Replays: 3
QUOTE(fastAiR @ Yesterday, 20:16 PM)
I watched, and I will offer my opinion as well if you dont mind. I havent read Nicknames review as I dont want to be influenced by that, heres my thought on your play only (I didnt watch the gla).

- Work on ur supply placement, almost right but not perfect. You need to be fast at the start yes, but you have those supplys for a long time, maybe you saved 1 second at the start by putting it not perfect but ultimately lost two minutes across the life of the supply for the extra two seconds each truck takes.

- At your unsafe, you got mines before your second truck, maybe that was a misclick. When the second truck did come out, both trucks were collecting from the same supply. Send second truck to another pile

- A tech RPG came and attacked ur main supply, he hit mines but it survived, you ran away with your trucks to the other side, far away. You should have crushed those MDs with the trucks

- After you had your basic base setup, both your dozers sat together holding hands at the back of your base. You're lucky a second tech rpg didnt come, easy hunt

- Your sneaky dragon on the left, that worked well, but you could have easily lost it. Dont stop to engage that tunnel, drive past the tunnel and get the drgaon behind the supply at the bottom so the tunnel cant shoot it and if he pops anything it has to come through the flamewall. The supply is your target, not that tunnel, only engage the tunnel when he sees you and your dragon is going to die.

- When you were attacking middle you just had gatts and an outpost, take flamers as well, they are your best unit. Yes he has hijackers, just keep outposts and gatts near them. Gatts suck vs tunnels, and dragons are very annoying, you can force him through firewalls chasing you etc

- Good you got gatt up so quickly

- Send low health units home to heal

- Dont make ovies, Jarmen just owns it and they so slow and stupid. They derp around so much that vs bus or Jarmen, they are just useless, and will die before they even fire once. People make ovies when they dont want to float but dont know what to build (make infernos and ecms).

- You attacked his base with a fairly big push, and your lotus was there revealing buildings. But instead of capping his supply or any other building, she stood there while gatts shot the building very slowly. Cap is fastest, do it, especially for as supply

- Think about where you engage more, so this is during that big push still when he was very weak. He basically had a line of defence across the front of his base.
Attack from the side, not into the line where you are exposed to 3/4 base defences. If you come from the side you have a good concave and you are only vs one or two base defence at a time.
Really, think about this, its very important you could have won the game with this thought.

- Classic china mistake, GLA out maneuvered you. You pretty much ignored the flanks and pushed down mid to his main base. I dont have a problem with that, but you have to bunker the fck out of your flanks. China is shitty and slow, gla just needs to out maneuvre you and he did that, forcing you to retreat back, and chase him around, and that was without bus.
Drop some bunker there, literally shove 3 bunker and make a gatt if you want.Stealth cant do nothing at all vs that, and you can forget about that entire flank. In this instance you would have to bunker both flanks. (this was your biggest downfall)

- Spam flamers in mid/late game, people dont use hijackers as much after the start. Keep them with your army so they cant be stolen, but flamers are the best for clearing gla bases, literally dragon spam to kill the palace etc. He onyl has quads and maybe a bus, so mass flamewall hurts him alot. Let the dragons do the work and just guard the dragons with gatt outpoast and mig

- You took so long to take your 3rd supply

- You took ages to get BN, at this point of the game you had dragons and some infernos for a while

- When you finally got MiGs you couldnt see anything because he was stealth so you just started force firing the floor in random places. Lol, dont force fire its so terrible, it makes migs bug out and do stupid things. Use lotus or empty outposts to reveal targets for the migs, you could even run past a stinger with her to lure a quad pop and then mig the pop.

- You didnt get Migs for a while, get them faster tbh. And their job is to kill bus tbh, that is always highest priority. Espcially when you are attacking with your ground army like infenro etc, he will pop buses to kill infernos so you have to have the mig circling waiting for that. This guy didnt make many bus you were lucky

- Count yourself lucky he took so long to kill your oils

- After a while it was fairly obvious you would lose, as soon as he started out manuevering you. You ultimately spread yourself too thin in the end, and attacked in an unfocussed manner, not achieving anything, just attacking two places at once. At this late stage of the game you have to be focussed in what you want to achieve, but as I said earlier your demise really came from your exposed flanks.


I made notes as I watched so they are in order form what I saw. Its a hard match up, you look pretty decent, just fine details tbh.


Well I am so grateful for the time you spent watching and taking notes of my replay and I must confess that it was one of my first matches online that's why I was so thirsty for your guys feedback on the match to know where I did my rights and wrongs but In general it was fiddly at leat for me to take out stealth as a Vchina but with your guidance I think from now on I will do much more better on my future match-ups cheers m8🤤👍
#6Reda B  Sep 21 2021, 14:01 PM -
Replays: 3
QUOTE(fastAiR @ Yesterday, 20:16 PM)
I watched, and I will offer my opinion as well if you dont mind. I havent read Nicknames review as I dont want to be influenced by that, heres my thought on your play only (I didnt watch the gla).

- Work on ur supply placement, almost right but not perfect. You need to be fast at the start yes, but you have those supplys for a long time, maybe you saved 1 second at the start by putting it not perfect but ultimately lost two minutes across the life of the supply for the extra two seconds each truck takes.

- At your unsafe, you got mines before your second truck, maybe that was a misclick. When the second truck did come out, both trucks were collecting from the same supply. Send second truck to another pile

- A tech RPG came and attacked ur main supply, he hit mines but it survived, you ran away with your trucks to the other side, far away. You should have crushed those MDs with the trucks

- After you had your basic base setup, both your dozers sat together holding hands at the back of your base. You're lucky a second tech rpg didnt come, easy hunt

- Your sneaky dragon on the left, that worked well, but you could have easily lost it. Dont stop to engage that tunnel, drive past the tunnel and get the drgaon behind the supply at the bottom so the tunnel cant shoot it and if he pops anything it has to come through the flamewall. The supply is your target, not that tunnel, only engage the tunnel when he sees you and your dragon is going to die.

- When you were attacking middle you just had gatts and an outpost, take flamers as well, they are your best unit. Yes he has hijackers, just keep outposts and gatts near them. Gatts suck vs tunnels, and dragons are very annoying, you can force him through firewalls chasing you etc

- Good you got gatt up so quickly

- Send low health units home to heal

- Dont make ovies, Jarmen just owns it and they so slow and stupid. They derp around so much that vs bus or Jarmen, they are just useless, and will die before they even fire once. People make ovies when they dont want to float but dont know what to build (make infernos and ecms).

- You attacked his base with a fairly big push, and your lotus was there revealing buildings. But instead of capping his supply or any other building, she stood there while gatts shot the building very slowly. Cap is fastest, do it, especially for as supply

- Think about where you engage more, so this is during that big push still when he was very weak. He basically had a line of defence across the front of his base.
Attack from the side, not into the line where you are exposed to 3/4 base defences. If you come from the side you have a good concave and you are only vs one or two base defence at a time.
Really, think about this, its very important you could have won the game with this thought.

- Classic china mistake, GLA out maneuvered you. You pretty much ignored the flanks and pushed down mid to his main base. I dont have a problem with that, but you have to bunker the fck out of your flanks. China is shitty and slow, gla just needs to out maneuvre you and he did that, forcing you to retreat back, and chase him around, and that was without bus.
Drop some bunker there, literally shove 3 bunker and make a gatt if you want.Stealth cant do nothing at all vs that, and you can forget about that entire flank. In this instance you would have to bunker both flanks. (this was your biggest downfall)

- Spam flamers in mid/late game, people dont use hijackers as much after the start. Keep them with your army so they cant be stolen, but flamers are the best for clearing gla bases, literally dragon spam to kill the palace etc. He onyl has quads and maybe a bus, so mass flamewall hurts him alot. Let the dragons do the work and just guard the dragons with gatt outpoast and mig

- You took so long to take your 3rd supply

- You took ages to get BN, at this point of the game you had dragons and some infernos for a while

- When you finally got MiGs you couldnt see anything because he was stealth so you just started force firing the floor in random places. Lol, dont force fire its so terrible, it makes migs bug out and do stupid things. Use lotus or empty outposts to reveal targets for the migs, you could even run past a stinger with her to lure a quad pop and then mig the pop.

- You didnt get Migs for a while, get them faster tbh. And their job is to kill bus tbh, that is always highest priority. Espcially when you are attacking with your ground army like infenro etc, he will pop buses to kill infernos so you have to have the mig circling waiting for that. This guy didnt make many bus you were lucky

- Count yourself lucky he took so long to kill your oils

- After a while it was fairly obvious you would lose, as soon as he started out manuevering you. You ultimately spread yourself too thin in the end, and attacked in an unfocussed manner, not achieving anything, just attacking two places at once. At this late stage of the game you have to be focussed in what you want to achieve, but as I said earlier your demise really came from your exposed flanks.


I made notes as I watched so they are in order form what I saw. Its a hard match up, you look pretty decent, just fine details tbh.
#7fastAiR  Sep 21 2021, 20:21 PM -
Replays: 83 Game:
Awards:
QUOTE(Reda B @ Today, 13:48 PM)


Well I am so grateful for the time you spent watching and taking notes of my replay and I must confess that it was one of my first matches online that's why I was so thirsty for your guys feedback on the match to know where I did my rights and wrongs but In general it was fiddly at leat for me to take out stealth as a Vchina but with your guidance I think from now on I will do much more better on my future match-ups cheers m8🤤👍

You played good hoenstly, if you are new thats very good. As I said, its small details you need to work on/think about.

In the real world, if you and ur opponent are equals, china v should never beat stealth. Stealth is one of the best armeis and China possibly the worst.

Chinas only real hope is bunker spam, yes someone might say its lame, but when you are chinav vs stealth idc personally. Even when you attack, its good to take a dozer forward with your army, and keep dropping bunekrs and speaker towers so you have a defensive position to fall back on, keep doing this progressive bunker rush strat and eventually you strangle gla.
Sneak is an issue but hopefully your powers and migs can prevent that (sneak can often win stealth the game, so make sure you have a counter to it like mines ready to drop, and mined buildings, plus having units in your base to respond).

Theres an actual mentoring topic sub forum here https://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...?showforum=2596, if you want some further help you can ask there, you might get lucky and some pro helps you out. Leikeze isnt round that much these days, but he is a good teacher.
Best advice is watch ur replays, learn what you did right and what you did wrong and how you could have won.

If you want others replays reviewed then post and ask, im not pro just a semi but I like watching and offering my opinion
This post has been edited by fastAiR: Sep 21 2021, 21:40 PM
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