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Discussion: RA3 Balance Changes

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# 1Constable Chris Mar 20 2021, 09:52 AM
Greetings.

Dimon and I were talking regarding some possible balance changes that could be implemented in future patches and be accepted among the majority of the community. Therefore, this discussion was opened to see what other people have to say.

There are people who think the game is balanced, there are people who think the game could use some tweaks, and there are people who think the game is outright unfair when it comes to a specific faction.

I know that balance discussions in this game are a rather sensitive topic, so I encourage everyone to share his thoughts calmly and in a civilized matter as this is merely a discussion, and make sure you include arguments for why you think a specific change should happen.

Mainly the 1 change that I think everyone (or at least most people) can agree on, is the Flak Trooper price reduction to 300.
This unit does not deserve to be priced at 400, and it can be reduced to 300 like the rest of the Anti-Armor infantry.

Another thing that in my opinion should be done, is the Mig's HP buff. This unit cannot take a lot of hits unlike Apollos or even Tengus.

Sputnik price reduction goes without saying. Apocs could use either a price decrease or a buff in other areas to make up for it's insane cost.

Those are my 2 cents smile.gif

This post has been edited by Constable Chris: Mar 20 2021, 12:00 PM

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# 2Papa_Coming Mar 20 2021, 10:14 AM
It's all about soviet biggrin.gif

I like the idea of flak troopers being 300 kr. Sputnik is ofc also good.

But give migs more health? It is just a unit that has weak sides and strong sides like any other unit.
I don't think it is healthy to change that, and whats the purpose of giving it more health? Make it as strong as apollo? Allies is airfaction so no need. Migs are good at hit-run.

Idk with apoc tanks. I see the mindset but... Overall I am not positive with changhing the units itselves. They are as it is with weak and strong sides.

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# 3Papa_Coming Mar 20 2021, 10:16 AM
QUOTE(Papa_Coming @ Mar 20 2021, 10:14 AM) *

It's all about soviet biggrin.gif

I like the idea of flak troopers being 300 kr. Sputnik is ofc also good.

But give migs more health? It is just a unit that has weak sides and strong sides like any other unit.
I don't think it is healthy to change that, and whats the purpose of giving it more health? Make it as strong as apollo? Allies is airfaction so no need. Migs are good at hit-run.

Idk with apoc tanks. I see the mindset but... Overall I am not positive with changing the units themselves.

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# 4Zezo Mar 20 2021, 12:06 PM
QUOTE(Papa_Coming @ Mar 20 2021, 10:14 AM) *

It's all about soviet biggrin.gif

I like the idea of flak troopers being 300 kr. Sputnik is ofc also good.

But give migs more health? It is just a unit that has weak sides and strong sides like any other unit.
I don't think it is healthy to change that, and whats the purpose of giving it more health? Make it as strong as apollo? Allies is airfaction so no need. Migs are good at hit-run.

Idk with apoc tanks. I see the mindset but... Overall I am not positive with changhing the units itselves. They are as it is with weak and strong sides.

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# 5cwedvin Mar 20 2021, 14:18 PM
Lets get the big thing out of the way,

FLACK TROOPERS COST OF 400 -> 300

I disagree as flack troopers has a "last resort" option compared to other anti-armor infantry,

The javelin has better antair than the flack trooper, and it is over all stronger vs tanks when it comes regular attack indeed.

But here is how I see the thing,

Tankbuster excels at destroying tanks, and are actually better than the 2 other counterparts at fighting infantry.
Javelins having a long-range optertuinies, and good antiair damage lacks in the protections against enemy infantry.
Flacktroopers being as expensive as they are would be looking at as horrible against air, yeah I would not disagree with that, but they tank potential is to great to reduce the cost. If an allied player wants to attack a soviet player

They have to take certain things into account
1 do they have a terror drone to stop your army or at least 1 unit
2 do they utilise leach beam.
3 and if they trained some flacktroopers, how can you avoid crushing them as that will be last resort, as a 400 flack trooper alone can get the guardian tank down to red hp and be sniped by a hammer tank leach beam.

Flack troopers are expensive as their magnetic mines are to strong to reduce, If the cost is now reduced to 300 the flack trooper will be commonly used in the army against allies, which will deny vindicators from going and bombing the soviet as easily with out taking loses, and when the fighting begins the allied player cant use their guardian tanks as effectly either.

You could say allies has peacekeeper but we all know soviet infantry beats allied infantry bears and conscripts.

The javelin as mentioned is fantastic at dealing tanks and air but it cant deal with infantry as easily.
tank busters good vs tanks and can do okay vs infantry but cant deal with air.
flaktroopers being extremely good at dealing with tanks should struggle with something besides infantry, which is air. they can still hit it, they can still poke it if you want.
but 5 flack troopers will still shoot down a tengu before it flies past them.

the flack troopers having the opportunity to take something down with them is to good hense the 400 cost.

950 gurdain tank down to red hp of a single 400 flack trooper.

but how would it be when its 950 vs a single 300 flack trooper doing the same amount of damage.

they are expensive and really specific to use, and its great to see that you want to use it more.
But in all honesty the flack trooper can do a lot of damage for its prize.

Instead of constantly repeat my self.

Lets move on to the next thing, mig hp increase.

No the mig has the luxury of "splash damage" unlike the tengu / appolov counterpart.

yes the appolov is tankier and does more DPS but allies are dependent on their air, soviets are not.

The mig has the opportunity to splash hit many things all air that stacks up.

Its bad hp is to prevent it from taking risky plays, appolovs should be able to do that as the allies need to keep trying to win the air.

also twin frog needs to have a counter, if you can add in equal or stronger migs in that combo what is the allies gonna do?

Apoc tank, no

Once again its strong and expensive, it can one shot some bots or tanks on certain angles.

But it dies just as fast as a king oni, and dies slower than a mirage tank. beeing able to pull away enemy units from the army forcing the allied player or the empire player to move in too early is a really strong thing to be able to do. It does not need a buff, it is used sparingly and so it should remain as it is really powerful.

Sputniks, Yeah I get why you would say that, but unlike the allies, empire and soviets can expand and leave their expansions

soviets can even sell their sputnik after the expansion and have no problems with it while the allies has to keep their prospector hub up and there.

it can easily be transported around, it deploys fast. use it sparingly and sneaky to be able to pull fansy stuff off

I get why but I don't support it.

I would explain better to you chris, but I am more of a talker than a typer smile.gif

So if you want to discuss in details then lets do it over voice chat smile.gif

I respect your opinion on stuff, but I belive the game is well balanced as it is, fair and square, and I will listen to what you have to say, that does not mean you and I have to agree on stuff.

I did not speak about empire that much in this scenario as (tengus) <---- VX tsunami tanks etc. you get my point on that chris. tongue.gif

Jokes aside,

I don't think it should be adjusted. But lets see what the community has to say on it.




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# 6Constable Chris Mar 20 2021, 14:25 PM
Just for clarification: This thread is not just about balance changes for Soviets or the ones I listed. If anyone thinks any faction should have any change, this is also the place to post it. Since so far the replies have been directly to the ones I posted.

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# 7EmpirePlayer Mar 20 2021, 16:16 PM
just reduce tengu cost to 500$

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# 8~Fury~ Mar 20 2021, 16:43 PM
Imo any price changes should be kept within $100, anymore than that might cause too much change. But i get it, the reason for this is to make changes.

Another issue that has been bothering me throughout playing all the while is the late game protocols for sovs and empire, i think we can all agree that empire late game protocols is bad compared to others. Allies last protocol that gets more $$ is maybe a little too strong? for me when i play as other factions i face the problem of little funds left, if i play as allies i win 99% of the time because i just have more funds. And im referring to games if both sides = refs/units etc etc. Allies just has straight up has huge advantage.

Maybe make little buffs to sovs and empire late game protocols? etc building cost for structures reduce by 25%

This post has been edited by ~Fury~: Mar 20 2021, 16:55 PM

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# 9Dutcharmy Mar 20 2021, 21:22 PM
Why make changes if the game is already super old, I do get the point for the flak and that could be a thing. But the rest is not needed in my opinion. migs extra HP? thats just a thing in the game. And what fury said about protocals sov has reduced of units costs etc, so they need less money. You're just unlucky that you play Empire with less good late game protocols. But in the early game it's super good.

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# 10Constable Chris Mar 20 2021, 21:44 PM
The game being super old is not really an argument here honestly. There are still players playing this game and competitively even. This warrants balance discussions and even changes, regardless if the game is 50 years old or more.

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# 11Warprism Mar 21 2021, 05:43 AM
Agree with Ducharmy. This game doesnt need any more change. In the first post you only focus about soviet stuff. I can understand when it comes to remove bugs but not changing version for "better" balance when you're not expert about that.
Maybe at least 5-6 experts should talk about that...

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# 12cwedvin Mar 21 2021, 09:00 AM
QUOTE(Warprism @ Mar 21 2021, 05:43 AM) *

Agree with Ducharmy. This game doesnt need any more change. In the first post you only focus about soviet stuff. I can understand when it comes to remove bugs but not changing version for "better" balance when you're not expert about that.
Maybe at least 5-6 experts should talk about that...


In the past experts had a say in the balancing of the game as you know the game was updated tongue.gif

But these days the game does not need a change.

all i see with flack troopers getting cheaper is that they will be used so much that allies is almost forced to do a turret push every game. and power plant airfeild straight build (fast air)

regarding the empire stuff said,

Yeah, it ain't as powerful as allies' time bomb cryo or crhonor rift, nor as power full as the soviet orbital, desolator, magnetic singularity and magnetic satellite.

However, empire has a lot of strong passives.

honroable discharge,
adv rocket pods
fleet thing <- forgot the name tongue.gif

Empire has a lot of really strong passivs that don't need activation all you need to focus on is the battle at hand, the micro and the macro. heck you even got Point defense drones which basically gives your tanks an extra hp bar post-13661-1143531603.gif

Letting you get away with more stuff.

Empire is strong in so many ways and their late game protocols are strong when used correctly.

The ballon bombs can chase enemy units or go to different structures as you see fit,
while the final squadron can do MASIVE damage to stuff it hits (sadly its kinda random where they land)

the emperor rage gives you a massive fire burst which can turn the tide yes it slowes aswell but use it on your artilery and watch the new found long range gatteling gun.

I would not agree that they are underpowered but they are not as strong as the rest as they are far stronger in the early / in the pasive game.

I will like to add, that if a topic like this is made @warprism or @others, It it made to include the community instead of just having the "experts" decide everything.

If 5 experts want to adjust the tengu prize to lets say 1200 would you want to follow that (i doubt it) (but i don't know ya perhaps you would tongue.gif )

Jokes aside, point being you can join in on the discussion and share your thoughts on the matter.

I personally for example will only respond to things posted regarding change as I think the game is balanced.
and I will stand by that

@chris regarding the game being really old and that as an argument, it can be an argument as everyone is used to it why "split" the community now?
we are all used to allied turret push, tengu spam, and terror drones by now. we all know how each faction works so why change it?

What would be the optimal goal? where every troop has the same firing speed and same damage?

All units are different and are meant for different jobs.

I do get that no matter how old a game is it could be changed, that is true, but you don't have to change that is a really important thing to remember.
Change can be good, and change can be bad.

I think this can be an healthy discussion for the community, but I don't think change is needed.

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# 13Papa_Coming Mar 21 2021, 10:02 AM
QUOTE(cwedvin @ Mar 21 2021, 09:00 AM) *

In the past experts had a say in the balancing of the game as you know the game was updated tongue.gif

But these days the game does not need a change.

all i see with flack troopers getting cheaper is that they will be used so much that allies is almost forced to do a turret push every game. and power plant airfeild straight build (fast air)

regarding the empire stuff said,

Yeah, it ain't as powerful as allies' time bomb cryo or crhonor rift, nor as power full as the soviet orbital, desolator, magnetic singularity and magnetic satellite.

However, empire has a lot of strong passives.

honroable discharge,
adv rocket pods
fleet thing <- forgot the name tongue.gif

Empire has a lot of really strong passivs that don't need activation all you need to focus on is the battle at hand, the micro and the macro. heck you even got Point defense drones which basically gives your tanks an extra hp bar post-13661-1143531603.gif

Letting you get away with more stuff.

Empire is strong in so many ways and their late game protocols are strong when used correctly.

The ballon bombs can chase enemy units or go to different structures as you see fit,
while the final squadron can do MASIVE damage to stuff it hits (sadly its kinda random where they land)

the emperor rage gives you a massive fire burst which can turn the tide yes it slowes aswell but use it on your artilery and watch the new found long range gatteling gun.

I would not agree that they are underpowered but they are not as strong as the rest as they are far stronger in the early / in the pasive game.

I will like to add, that if a topic like this is made @warprism or @others, It it made to include the community instead of just having the "experts" decide everything.

If 5 experts want to adjust the tengu prize to lets say 1200 would you want to follow that (i doubt it) (but i don't know ya perhaps you would tongue.gif )

Jokes aside, point being you can join in on the discussion and share your thoughts on the matter.

I personally for example will only respond to things posted regarding change as I think the game is balanced.
and I will stand by that

@chris regarding the game being really old and that as an argument, it can be an argument as everyone is used to it why "split" the community now?
we are all used to allied turret push, tengu spam, and terror drones by now. we all know how each faction works so why change it?

What would be the optimal goal? where every troop has the same firing speed and same damage?

All units are different and are meant for different jobs.

I do get that no matter how old a game is it could be changed, that is true, but you don't have to change that is a really important thing to remember.
Change can be good, and change can be bad.

I think this can be an healthy discussion for the community, but I don't think change is needed.


Flak trooper from 400 to 300 will not change how many you produce it in the early game. (Like people dont spam tanksbusters or javelins in the early game) so no, allies is not forced to push. I have experienced soo many times that my eco was rekt and couldnt produce normal amount tanks or anything else. And everytime, I notice it is because I am producing flak trooper also (even with 4 refs). If i make flak troopers in teamgame in the early game, it means all in. In the late game you only produce flak troopers if you are superior in eco, which is kind of troll. Or there are rare cases where flak troopers helps your bullfrogs vs vindies. Imagine that a bullfrog that flak trooper is almost half the price of bullfrog. Doesnt make much sense to me.

I remember one game, i produced one single flak trooper to support me in the sickle vs sickle war early game. My eco said to me i g2g

This post has been edited by Papa_Coming: Mar 21 2021, 10:08 AM

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# 14Papa_Coming Mar 21 2021, 10:05 AM
QUOTE(~Fury~ @ Mar 20 2021, 16:43 PM) *

Imo any price changes should be kept within $100, anymore than that might cause too much change. But i get it, the reason for this is to make changes.

Another issue that has been bothering me throughout playing all the while is the late game protocols for sovs and empire, i think we can all agree that empire late game protocols is bad compared to others. Allies last protocol that gets more $$ is maybe a little too strong? for me when i play as other factions i face the problem of little funds left, if i play as allies i win 99% of the time because i just have more funds. And im referring to games if both sides = refs/units etc etc. Allies just has straight up has huge advantage.

Maybe make little buffs to sovs and empire late game protocols? etc building cost for structures reduce by 25%


Full agree, except to the protocol part.

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# 15Constable Chris Mar 21 2021, 11:06 AM
QUOTE(Warprism @ Mar 21 2021, 05:43 AM) *

Agree with Ducharmy. This game doesnt need any more change. In the first post you only focus about soviet stuff. I can understand when it comes to remove bugs but not changing version for "better" balance when you're not expert about that.
Maybe at least 5-6 experts should talk about that...


You are misunderstanding the point of this topic... This is an open discussion for everyone to share their thoughts about balance changes that they think could be implemented. If this was an expert-only thread then I certainly would not have made it myself.

In the first post I focused on Soviets stuff? Of course I did, I am a Soviet player and these are the changes that I think could fit for the faction I mainly play.

I also explicitly stated in a subsequent post that this thread is for all players of all factions.

This is a discussion. Please get your facts straight.

This post has been edited by Constable Chris: Mar 21 2021, 11:10 AM

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# 16Dimon0000000 Mar 21 2021, 11:51 AM
I must say previously, I dont have any dreams about balance patches in ra3, obviously it not gonna happen and actually makes no sence cause game is dead. But nothing bad in some intresting discussions, right? After Chris made this thread, I was hoping to see constructive posts, offers, argumentation. But looks like i gonna make it myself... so lets explode the forum again smile.gif

Game is not balanced. Absurdly not balanced. This word will be used a lot in this post. If we could launch balance patch, what this patch should be focused on? Fixing of obvious imba units and abilities, which affects on gameplay and fair result more. I must previously explain my logic. For me exist difference between just strong tactics, strats, and units, and imbalanced, overpowered. For example - bears are very effective unit, actually just bears can fight vs army of infantry of any size. But you can fight vs it. Its not imba, not absurdly strong or unkillable thing. Compared to EMP missle for example, what is literally superweapon and often let allies win the game by single click. So here i want to make my list of best changes in my opinion of things, which are not acceptable for balanced game.

Turrets. Cost 800, builds immediately in 20 sec after order, available after build PP. Big damage, total universality + large building range of allied mcv = absurd effetivicy of allied turrets push from the beginning of the game. How it happens most of time? Allies just come closer, in 20 sec you get turret on your base and if you not able to kill it in next 20 sec or do enouth strong counterattack on allied main refs, you autolose. For kill turret need enouth strong army. It can be mass infantry from sov or empire or tanks. Making of army gets much more time than 20 sec. Add to this the fact you under constant vindi bombardment and must make strong antiair previosly and you get big problems. If you are new or Cwedvin and dont know how it happens - I advice to go in AMC thread and watch last BO5 vs Andrey I posted. Or just watch Andrey's games vs any good sov/emp opponent. How would i fix it? Best solution imo - reduce turret health for let infantry kill it easier. It will reduce ability of allies to solve any problem with turrets spam. Another solution - increasing of build time to 30 sec. Another solution - increase molotov damage vs buildings. 2nd way may be the best.

Vindicators. Magic solution to defend vs everything. Tanks? Turrets? PPs? Any harras? No problem. High damage vs units, quick rebuild, repair, speed and AF for 15 sec and 1000(I just realized it, holy absurd...) just after build PP. From the start of the game allies have magic weapon to defend vs literally any ground attack except very mass infantry(but vs it will help next unit). Even allied players(good ofc) admit, vindicators works like a superweapon. Why its too hard? Because for counter it need strong antiair, mass frogs for sov or tengu/vx for empire. And if you make 3 frogs instead of 4 vs 4 vindi, gg comes immediately. Same if you lose frog for some reason. Or vx. Imagine it happen vs allies push. And turret just blocked your WF and you cant build new frog because it die under turret fire for 2 sec. Good solution - reduce vindicator health. Even 10-15% less will remove ability to crush antiair soo easy. And ofc, allied AF. Increase build time to 20 sec isnt very much but it will fix a lot of problems. 1 - sov will be able to take oil on FI and allied winrate in AvS there will change from 100%. 2 - AvE cryopush get delay, more time to adapt, less chance to autolose. 3 - start vs AF will be more free at all and it will force allies to adapt more.

Riptides. Imo best unit in game. Almost tank armor for light vehichle, strong vs infantry, strong vs any water target, transport, comes from naval or WF and cost...750. When I learned it, I couldnt believe. Here i could also add absurd with sickles and frogs cost. Come on, special units, effective only in some situations, frog with pathetic health, fundamental unit for SvA, die to sneeze, cost 900. When riptide cost 750. Absolutely instane situation. All cost to 800.

For this reasons we have the situation, when in SvA between comparable high level players, if allies push on II FI and SP, allies get auto handicap 3-0. Literally. Without jokes. On FI no need push even, almost 100% win if allies dont fail hard.

Cryogeddon. Kill refs, factories, armies, 1 click, game over. Another option for allies to get free win. It should have much bigger delay before freeze and not be able to kill refs and factories.

Aircraft Carrier - absolute imba. Half of map range of fire, EMP missle, drones killable only for mass tengus, literally SW. For 2000. Range of EMP splash should be reduced hard. And would be logically to reduce health of drones for have some way to defend vs it. RA2 AC was much better in that key.

Cryocopter. Good unit but ability to shrink 2nd unit before outshrink 1st, ability to shrink from 15 km distance and the fact even apoc tank becomes useless by 1 click. Just imagine, 4 copters can keep 8 apocs shrinked same time. Almost remove t3 from allied game. The reason why we dont see apoc tanks in SvA at all. Reduce time of shrink or Increase time of reload it, reduce range of shrink a bit, at least for copters get some antiair damage.

Hammer tanks. Strongest t2 tank at all. But Leech beam shouldnt be an artillery and shouldnt be 2nd weapon at all. It give large advantage to sov tanks in battle, hammers actually kills everything except king Onis and apocs. Range of beem should be reduced at least a bit, for dont kill turrets from safe distance free, reduce damage. It should be just ability to get extra weapon, not artillery.

Terror Drones. Stasis ray have too big range of fire. Also it shouldbt be able to stop few tanks same time. Abusing of beam and stasis ray almost guarantees for sov win in t2 battle between comparable size armies. Reduce range maybe on 20%, limit rate. Btw, if distance of ray will not be too safe, jerk off with it will be much more risky.

Flak trooper. 400. Just this insane cost actually remove important unit from standart game. Back to 300. Will sov begin to abuse it? Yes. Does allies or empire abuse tbs and javs? Yes. It just will bring unit back in game, give sov way to play without WF on regular basis, make sov t1 stronger and force allied players to think better before push.

Empire is pretty balanced faction but maybe ability to abuse dodjos and mass inf should be reduced. Reduce dodjo health. It will let other factions fight better for oils on big maps. Also - reduce damage of honorable explosion, just a bit. Maybe increase power of late bombordments. And Limit time of PDD drones. It shouldnt work until reload. Its actually strongest protocol except cryogeddon, it give too much power to massive empire units and it available almost from the start.

This little changes can make game much more balanced, fair, add diversity in gameplay. Allies finally will have to show some skills to win, sov stop to be castrated faction. Ofc it matters mostly for good+ 1v1 and teamgames, when players able to use potential of their factions.

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# 17Andrey_96 Mar 21 2021, 12:00 PM
why dimon want nerf me

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# 18Dimon0000000 Mar 21 2021, 12:10 PM
QUOTE(Andrey_96 @ Mar 21 2021, 22:00 PM) *

why dimon want nerf me

As main allied abuser, you know about things i wrote more than anyone else

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# 19cwedvin Mar 21 2021, 12:27 PM
QUOTE(Dimon0000000 @ Mar 21 2021, 12:10 PM) *

As main allied abuser, you know about things i wrote more than anyone else

LOOOOOL

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# 20Constable Chris Mar 21 2021, 12:41 PM
QUOTE(cwedvin @ Mar 21 2021, 12:27 PM) *

LOOOOOL


He's not wrong you know. Andrey knows how to abuse each faction's balance and imbalance.

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