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GameReplays.org»CNC Zero Hour Forums»Zero Hour Discussions»Zero Hour General Discussion

Fargo World Champion? - Commentary about the professionalism in Zero Hour

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# 1Goauld Nov 30 2022, 17:56 PM
Counter Strike, League of Legends, Pokemon VGC and more. Big E-Sports tournaments are happening with massive price money at stake. Of course this are big gaming franchises with big studios and sponsors behind it and Command and Conquer Generals: Zero Hour is no match in terms of popularity. But even as a small community, more and more efforts are seen to grow our precious little game to a greater audience. And there are already some positive effects. Streamers get more viewers with Zero Hour than ever. A patch-project is on its way to fix and stabilise this 20 year old game. Some real sweat and hard voluntary work is put into it. And to not forget the money price pools in recent tournaments. The Zero Hour World Series 2022 totals about USD 5'000.- which is enormous for a game with this few regular players. It looks like everything is heading in the right direction, but is it really?

There are some negative issues in this community, most of them are nothing special for an online gamer community. Toxicity and low IQ participants are to be expected. Especially the latter, with all those brain-melting streams. The resulting drama and memes are top notch and trash talk is normal. Some more civility would be beneficial nevertheless.
That is not the real problem with the Zero Hour community. There are especially two other issues observable, which hinder the game to grow and thrive and might be off putting for a greater audience.
First, the lack of will for change, and second the lack of professionalism handling high stakes tournaments like the World Series.

With the development of the upcoming patch, it seems two groups have developed. The conservative, mostly older players and the progressive players seeking for change and progress to the old formula.
Some are too strongly opposed to any change so as not to lose their advantage of experience and their old familiar ways of winning or of an irrational fear of destroying the game. In the process, they prevent, sometimes very emotionally, the possibility of positive change. But that is a discussion for another time.
The second and main issue is easier to solve and is especially urgent with regard to current events. The question is whether there is a will to do so.

The World Series has now taken place and we have now reached the final. But lo and behold, apparently every fan and spectator suddenly has to wait two weeks for this final.
At the very beginning of the tournament, rules and deadlines were announced. One would think that these would be binding and enforced, but it seems that no one here cares. And this in a tournament where the stakes are as high as 5,000 dollars.
Most of the tournament went off without a hitch and most of the players are quite efficient and stick to them. The problem this time is the previously mentioned "older" participants who want extra treatment and even get it. To the detriment of all other participants and spectators who want a fair and decent tournament.
Starting with the planning of games. Deadlines should be deadlines. Without ifs and buts. No exceptions. If someone can't arrange and play their game by the deadline, then tough luck, disqualification. Often it is clear who shows more effort to arrange the game. It is the most normal thing in the world to expect players to show the necessary respect and care. Especially when 5,000 dollars are at stake.
The final should have taken place last weekend, but certain players could not find a Sunday, a Sunday mind you, to complete their semi-final on time. Consequences? None. It's just a long-established player you don't want to step on. While everyone else has to wait. Others would have deserved to play in his place just as much. And you can also expect to keep a day off or take a day off when you're playing for 5,000 dollars. Especially if the date has already been communicated in advance and you can very probably assume that you will have to play then. And if you can't, well, then you have to bite the bullet and not participate. The games would have been just as exciting and interesting to watch with any other player who had made it this far. This is just one example of disregarding deadlines, but not the only one.
Just today, it can be read that the final will also be postponed for another two weeks. What is this? And that's because the planned streamer is not available. Just not available for the biggest event in Zero Hour. Sometimes unforeseen things happen, and due to the delays that took place, you can understand why streamers suddenly can't stream anymore. But there is not only one streamer. Others can just as easily do an entertaining, emotional, epic, IQ-melting stream.

In addition to the misuse of deadlines, it seems that rules are also bent at will and for better or worse so as not to upset anyone established.
If someone disconnects, then it is considered a defeat. And if someone leaves the game, then it is also considered a defeat. It is technically a surrender. It should not matter what the reason is, why someone quits. Rage, bugs, accidental misclicks or malfunctioning equipment. That is the player's own problem. He should be solely responsible for his computer and game working on tournament day. It is not the opponent's fault. If you can't do that, or you're unlucky, well then you have to accept defeat. Everything else only opens the door for abuse of all kinds. Furthermore, it also pisses off the spectator when after such a nerve-wracking game, one of the most exciting and epic games at the score of 5 to 6 and such an emotional super stream suddenly one of the players creates drama and tries to create unfair advantages.
Again, no consequences.

This opinion piece is not meant to be an attack on the hosts. They do a good job, but don't really dare to enforce the rules consistently. This is unprofessional and always creates drama and harms the sport. As someone with a background in law, there is an expectation of professionalism in this regard. Lack thereof invites players to take liberties of doing things that are not correct. To satisfy their egos at the expense of the game, the spectators and fairness.
All these aspects also lead to a higher entry barrier for beginners who want to get involved in the scene and compete with other players and makes the game unattractive.

In summary, to return to the click-bait title, given all that has been mentioned. Disregard for deadlines and rules. Should the match for third place be the actual final. So now we have a final with a player who didn't even bother to qualify in the final, who should have lost the semi-final and another player who should have been eliminated at the latest due to deadlines.
Imagine these transgressions in professional sport. Tennis or football. If the serve fails, you say okay then just again, his racket was just crooked. Or a football team is in the World Cup semi-finals and can't play right now, and the whole world waits another two weeks. All the sponsors would be angry and I wonder what the opinion of those who sponsored the World Series is. The legitimacy of the World Series and all the work done in the community suffers greatly.

Of course you can disagree, this is just my opinion, from the point of view of a very casual player but regular spectator, hoping that Zero Hour will get better and bigger again.

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# 2Phoenix- Nov 30 2022, 18:01 PM
Too much to read. I am sorry for your loss or congratulations to you!






Was a joke. Gonna read it.

This post has been edited by Phoenix-: Nov 30 2022, 18:04 PM

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# 3Wulfy Nov 30 2022, 18:15 PM
Noice post. As a fellow noob i am 100% agree. For me its kinda wierd after dota this schedule but to be a little objective here the sponsors thegamers and their priority is good games not branding. But they should judge.

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# 4Phoenix- Nov 30 2022, 18:19 PM
I obviously don't want to touch on every point since this is simply too much for me.

Regarding deadlines : I am not a great supporter of a delayed final, but I rather have it in a few days than no final. Deadlines are not set in stone, depending on the issue we can extend them here and there. I or we usually try to enforce them but sometimes it's just better to have few more days. It's simple as that. I personally don't know the reasons why dominator is not available earlier but you always have to consider 3 people in this set.

Regarding Size not eligible to play : We suggested to not let him in and all of the sudden mayhem all over the place 😅
There wasn't a single qualified player who didn't get to play instead of Size so I don't see the issue here. There was even a reserve list.

Regarding the keyboard issues : Yes, technically this could have been a win for Fargo. But we rather want to add a bit of humanity to the events and I am sure a lot of people benefit from this.
Excal benefits from that, Fargo does, Member 123 does and everyone else.

I understand a few of your points but I also think it's not a big deal in the end.

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# 5-NickName Nov 30 2022, 18:23 PM
ZH has quite some bugs, plus sometimes a player doesn't load and thus disconnects. Let's give his opponent the win, it isn't his problem. Size's keyboard wasn't working as he said. ZH has many bugs, these things can happen. A simple re after 3 seconds, what is the big deal about that? If this happened after 10 minutes, okay. But nothing was decided. Having this decide the match would be a very disappointed outcome of the semifinals.

The semifinal Vivid vs Excal was hard to arrange and past the deadline, this also pushes the deadline of the final a bit further (especially as the match for 3rd place has to be played first). Yes, would be ideal if the semifinals were played last weekend and the finals this weekend, but you can't really plan that strict as things will happen so be it. I prefer a delayed final than no final at all. If deadline=deadline was followed, none of the semifinals were played too. How great is that to just pick a winner from the last 4 remaining players. That will attract sponsors to donate for next year's prize pool.

I know that Excal works almost every Sunday. Should he skip work for a few weeks, just as he MIGHT play some ZH matches? That's ridicilous to expect from any player.

Don't see how this lead to a higher entry barrier for beginners. Well, yes. Beginners have to actually play and win to get to the later rounds and can't be hoping for a free win by an opponent that bugs out. I think no player is now thinking: I am not gonna play Zero Hour because Size quit after 3 seconds and the semifinals were played 4 days after the deadline.

Comparison to football is another fail here. They do that for a living. All football competitions are put to an hold just for the World Cup. If you pay all the players to take 4 weeks off, they all can make the deadlines without any problems. But for everyone, it is a hobby.

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# 6HaWkY^ Nov 30 2022, 18:33 PM
Read the first line. stopped. Read the last line. It’s Anti pros fault.


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# 7OoE-ExCaL^ Nov 30 2022, 18:54 PM
I will reply in two parts as if I have read this correctly, most of your complaints are directed at me and size specifically, with particular emphasis on SiZe. Part 1 answering about myself, part 2 commenting on your SiZe accusations.

Part 1 ExCaL - Accusations of "asking for preferential treatment" and missing deadlines | opposition to new patch

-Missing deadlines:
Early rounds - QF:
Up until the 3rd round, I think I was the first if not one if the first players to complete their sets well before any deadline. Then came the quarter-final stage, which I and streamer was ready to play before the organised Community Outpost Lan, however Stazzz specifically asked for extra time to prepare (he can confirm this himself if you want evidence). This match was then played the week post-lan at everyone's earliest convenice.

Semi-Finals:
Both semi finals were played on the same day (albeit a few days after the proposed deadline). This was due to work/study commitments of people involved. Nevertheless, how can you say myself and SiZe should be disqualifed when everyone missed the deadline here?

Bronze and Grand Finals:
DoMiNaToR is the elected streamer for the Grand Final, and last year quite frankly did an absolutely exceptional presentation. He is working towards the same thing this year, but can't start work on that until next week as he is away on a work trip. Obviously he can't prepare until the semi finals have been played.
Fargo actually wanted to play yesterday without a streamer so he can disappear into the abyss of retirement asap for two weeks. But again, some scheduling, organisation of streamer and date compromise needs to take place.

-Asking for preferential treatment?
Could you give me one example where I have asked/demanded for preferential treatment during this World Series? I qualified as rank 1, was very punctual with deadlines until the above mention circumstances.

-Opposition to new patch
The argument of "old players are opposed to patch as they would lose their edge" simply doesn't fly. I have been part of previous patch testing tournaments (and won them all). My main concerns which were outlined in many posts in the patch topic were:

- Reasoning for certain balance changes
- Amount of changes for community adoption


Part 2 BiG^SiZe - Accusations of "asking for preferential treatment", missing deadlines and rule breaking

-Asking for preferential treatment?
It was the community who posted and very much asked for SiZe to be part of this WS, and as Phoenix stated, there were spots available since there were people who qualified who did not want to participate in the tournament. Therefore, SiZe and other players were drafted into this event. Can you give me one example where SiZe asks for preferential treatment?

-Rule Breaking
Zero Hour is a game of little glitches and bugs - one of which is where your china dozer doesn't build your reactor. Fallen Empire, TD, and Lone Eagle maps are notorious for it. In addition, if a player tabs to look at stream chat, sometimes the keyboard stops working until you hit ALT key. Are you seriously saying SiZe should default be knocked out of final for quitting after 1s? SiZe has shown fair play, respect and sportsmanship in Zero Hour for the best part of 20 years.

-Missing deadlines:
Maybe SiZe can answer here as I haven't followed his earlier round game arrangement, but again the semi finals were organised on the same day. So your argument of punishing the two players in the final makes no sense at all when the Bronze match has to be played before the Grand Final

This post has been edited by OoE-ExCaL^: Nov 30 2022, 19:02 PM


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# 8-NickName Nov 30 2022, 19:03 PM
QUOTE(OoE-ExCaL^ @ Nov 30 2022, 18:54 PM) *

Can you give me one example where SiZe asks for preferential treatment?


Him asking me to upload his replays? tongue.gif

QUOTE(HaWkY^ @ Nov 30 2022, 18:33 PM) *

Read the first line. stopped. Read the last line. It’s Anti pros fault.


+1

Or maybe his accent is at fault and people simply couldn't understand him?

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# 9-DoMiNaToR- Nov 30 2022, 19:25 PM
Finals was meant to happen on 27th nov and was agreed many months ago, by me too. But for whatever reason that date has now passed and I’m on a work trip with 500 people in Turkey the next few days as WS was meant to already be finished.

It seems people are happy to complain but also happy to see every game in the whole WS casted, happy to see zh more active than in a long time, more prize money than has ever been seen online, lots of positive stuff but still want to focus on negatives

The 3rd place playoff also should happen before the finals and they seem to not be able to play due to like 10 hour time difference or work shifts, exams etc. biggest WS ever can’t have a 2 week delay taking into account that many rounds had to be played already? I guess the maker of this topic would suggest let’s DQ whoever can’t make it ye? That’ll be epic.

I am free from Monday 5th dec, can do finals on weekday night if the topic maker is not happy with a bit of a wait.

Also regarding technical issues during a finals. Do you watch like csgo or sc2 when there is technical issues? Game gets paused or rematched. Or I guess you don’t watch other e sports?

Also size wants preferential treatment? If you watched zh over the years you would know size is one of the most fair players the game has ever seen. But guess ur new

This post has been edited by -DoMiNaToR-: Nov 30 2022, 19:33 PM

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# 10HaWkY^ Nov 30 2022, 19:26 PM
QUOTE(OoE-ExCaL^ @ Nov 30 2022, 19:54 PM) *

I will reply in two parts as if I have read this correctly, most of your complaints are directed at me and size specifically, with particular emphasis on SiZe. Part 1 answering about myself, part 2 commenting on your SiZe accusations.

Part 1 ExCaL - Accusations of "asking for preferential treatment" and missing deadlines | opposition to new patch

-Missing deadlines:
Early rounds - QF:
Up until the 3rd round, I think I was the first if not one if the first players to complete their sets well before any deadline. Then came the quarter-final stage, which I and streamer was ready to play before the organised Community Outpost Lan, however Stazzz specifically asked for extra time to prepare (he can confirm this himself if you want evidence). This match was then played the week post-lan at everyone's earliest convenice.

Semi-Finals:
Both semi finals were played on the same day (albeit a few days after the proposed deadline). This was due to work/study commitments of people involved. Nevertheless, how can you say myself and SiZe should be disqualifed when everyone missed the deadline here?

Bronze and Grand Finals:
DoMiNaToR is the elected streamer for the Grand Final, and last year quite frankly did an absolutely exceptional presentation. He is working towards the same thing this year, but can't start work on that until next week as he is away on a work trip. Obviously he can't prepare until the semi finals have been played.
Fargo actually wanted to play yesterday without a streamer so he can disappear into the abyss of retirement asap for two weeks. But again, some scheduling, organisation of streamer and date compromise needs to take place.

-Asking for preferential treatment?
Could you give me one example where I have asked/demanded for preferential treatment during this World Series? I qualified as rank 1, was very punctual with deadlines until the above mention circumstances.

-Opposition to new patch
The argument of "old players are opposed to patch as they would lose their edge" simply doesn't fly. I have been part of previous patch testing tournaments (and won them all). My main concerns which were outlined in many posts in the patch topic were:

- Reasoning for certain balance changes
- Amount of changes for community adoption
Part 2 BiG^SiZe - Accusations of "asking for preferential treatment", missing deadlines and rule breaking

-Asking for preferential treatment?
It was the community who posted and very much asked for SiZe to be part of this WS, and as Phoenix stated, there were spots available since there were people who qualified who did not want to participate in the tournament. Therefore, SiZe and other players were drafted into this event. Can you give me one example where SiZe asks for preferential treatment?

-Rule Breaking
Zero Hour is a game of little glitches and bugs - one of which is where your china dozer doesn't build your reactor. Fallen Empire, TD, and Lone Eagle maps are notorious for it. In addition, if a player tabs to look at stream chat, sometimes the keyboard stops working until you hit ALT key. Are you seriously saying SiZe should default be knocked out of final for quitting after 1s? SiZe has shown fair play, respect and sportsmanship in Zero Hour for the best part of 20 years.

-Missing deadlines:
Maybe SiZe can answer here as I haven't followed his earlier round game arrangement, but again the semi finals were organised on the same day. So your argument of punishing the two players in the final makes no sense at all when the Bronze match has to be played before the Grand Final


Fake


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# 11-DoMiNaToR- Nov 30 2022, 19:41 PM
Still haven’t read all of the original post but the more I do the funnier and more wrong it gets.

Now there’s some imaginary barriers preventing beginners from getting into the game lol.

The game has never been easier to get into, you know why? 100s of tutorials online how to install the game and how to play each faction. None of that existed 7 years ago.

But please tell us more about this imaginary barrier you invented in your head

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# 12xezon Nov 30 2022, 20:19 PM
In my opinion SiZe is lucky that tournament host did not decide for loss after the set. Could there have been bug? Yes. Do we have 100% evidence for it? No. Is that situation Fargo's fault or problem? No. Fargo rightfully asked for answers. Yes Fargo could have been generous/sportsman and said: "No problem, no harm done, lets rematch". But he is competitive player and wants to win. Best case would have been if Fargo won the last match. Now we have situation where the winner threw the decider but still won.

As for match delay: I am also surprised about the proposed 2.5 week delay. A month ago or so I was asked if I want to stream final match. I turned this down, because I am not in good form due lack of practice. Dominator + bl9r stream looks like good fit because they have presented all other tournament matches as well and present to big audiences.

I think certain things needs to be reviewed after tournament has ended. In previous years some things worked out much better than this year. The feedback in the opening post is valid.

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# 13Goauld Nov 30 2022, 21:46 PM
Wow, first i did not expect such thorough reactions. Thanks to all who read and commented smile.gif I appreciate the feedback from all of you.
Second, i apologise if i offended someone, this wasn't my intentio. English is not my native language, so please bear with me, as some formulation might be a little harsh.

To your answers just please look for your name, i answered all of you:)

@Wulfy

Thanks
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@Phoenix-

QUOTE
Regarding Size not eligible to play : We suggested to not let him in and all of the sudden mayhem all over the place ��
There wasn't a single qualified player who didn't get to play instead of Size so I don't see the issue here. There was even a reserve list.

I know that SiZe was asked to play by the community. Give the people what they want. I understand it fully. Even it is for me technically wrong. And that there are not more participants is a problem by its own. I guess mostly caused by moving the World Series in the busiest time of the year for most people. At least for people that i know.

QUOTE
understand a few of your points but I also think it's not a big deal in the end.

Thanks for reading and understanding. It wouldn't be a big deal, if it was one small detail once, but i think it's a bigger deal.
---------------------------------------------------------

@-NickName

QUOTE
A simple re after 3 seconds, what is the big deal about that? If this happened after 10 minutes, okay. But nothing was decided. Having this decide the match would be a very disappointed outcome of the semifinals.

In this case it is true that nothing was decided. However, it sets a precedent that players can just quit and re if they for example misclick their dozer or reactor and get delayed the first seconds, which in some matches can be important. Not saying this was the case here. But if you never punish and always let it slide, and everytime you say it is no big deal, it can be abused and intentionally quitted when a player didn't feel right at the moment with his starting clicks.

QUOTE
but you can't really plan that strict as things will happen so be it.

You can, if you want.

QUOTE
I prefer a delayed final than no final at all.

Me too. But a final on time is better.

QUOTE
If deadline=deadline was followed, none of the semifinals were played too. How great is that to just pick a winner from the last 4 remaining players. That will attract sponsors to donate for next year's prize pool.

They could be played, as you can just let players move up and replace the ones who can't play. Or maybe grant a player a postponement, but ban him for the next tournament. Or something else. There should be stricter consequences for not being able to arrange games as there are always delays, in almost every tournament. Otherwise they won't learn.
And i guess it's reasonable to expect players to show up at specific prementioned dates to play, when there is 5000 Dollars on the line.

QUOTE
I know that Excal works almost every Sunday. Should he skip work for a few weeks, just as he MIGHT play some ZH matches? That's ridicilous to expect from any player.

What's also ridiculous is to expect everybody else to accomodate just for one player. Yes people work and have lives and obligations and other stuf than Zero Hour going on. But putting matches of this importance on a monday afternoon is not a solution. Especially if all know that sunday is a no go, to not plan for this in advance and just go whooops well we can't is not really acceptable.

QUOTE
Don't see how this lead to a higher entry barrier for beginners. Well, yes. Beginners have to actually play and win to get to the later rounds and can't be hoping for a free win by an opponent that bugs out. I think no player is now thinking: I am not gonna play Zero Hour because Size quit after 3 seconds and the semifinals were played 4 days after the deadline.

This was not my point. Playing Zero Hour is of course as easy as it has ever been. I meant more that players might get put off to participate in the community and to competitively match with others here, when you do not have clear rules and organisation and consequences, and when everything is let aside. Plus the toxicity against players, and hostility against new things might be offputting as well. And all the unmoderated offensive behaviour on Revora and Gameranger is super bad as well, but I know that is not in your power to regulate, unfortunately.

QUOTE
Comparison to football is another fail here. They do that for a living. All football competitions are put to an hold just for the World Cup. If you pay all the players to take 4 weeks off, they all can make the deadlines without any problems. But for everyone, it is a hobby.

Okay, true, comparing it with professional Football might be a bit wrong. But compare it to amateur football. Where i am from, a lot of people play football amateurish in Associations in non professional leagues as a hobby. And they still manage to organise tournaments and league games on weekends and are not paid to do so.
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@HaWkY^

QUOTE
Read the first line. stopped. Read the last line. It’s Anti pros fault.

Thanks for reading at least that much smile.gif But no it's not Anti Pros fault. He's the most reliable and professional guy here. No wonder as a fellow banking guy smile.gif
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@OoE-Excal^

QUOTE
I will reply in two parts as if I have read this correctly, most of your complaints are directed at me and size specifically, with particular emphasis on SiZe.

It was no complaint directed at you or SiZe. Your cases were just the latest examples. You and SiZe are legends of the sport, and i have nothing against you.

QUOTE
Up until the 3rd round, I think I was the first if not one if the first players to complete their sets well before any deadline.

Yes, you are usually the muster student when it comes to speed of arrangements. I also do not have in mind every single arrangement during this World Series.

QUOTE
Semi-Finals:
Both semi finals were played on the same day (albeit a few days after the proposed deadline). This was due to work/study commitments of people involved. Nevertheless, how can you say myself and SiZe should be disqualifed when everyone missed the deadline here?

From the impression i got Fargo was ready to play whenever, and you came off as entitled for me with i can't play this weekend, that was scheduled weeks in advance now. ViViD is difficult case, as time zones exist, but they do for everyone else as well. SiZe i don't know if he was late or not. His proposed DQ isn't because of deadlines.

QUOTE
He is working towards the same thing this year, but can't start work on that until next week as he is away on a work trip. Obviously he can't prepare until the semi finals have been played.

And here you have it. Real consequences because of not enforcing deadlines. DoMiNaToR has other obligations past the scheduled tournament date. Like a lot of other persons. Therefore this impacts him negatively. He can't prepare on time, and everything gets more complicate and takes now more effort and time for everyone as real life is interferring. So the overall experience for everyone else also suffers.

QUOTE
-Asking for preferential treatment?

You did not ask. That's true. But you are still privileged as the number one player. Since i don't believe that any no name or nickname player would be given the option to say that they just cannot play this weekend. When everything else is already late. I might be wrong though, it's just the impression i get.

QUOTE
The argument of "old players are opposed to patch as they would lose their edge" simply doesn't fly (...)
- Reasoning for certain balance changes
- Amount of changes for community adoption

It looks like it is. Given how heated and derogatory the discussion got. With a very hard no against everything attitude. Reasoning for the balance changes sounds reasonable to me and amount of changes is not the issue. I mean 10 Changes for a half baked patch are worse than 1000 Changes for a thought through good patch. Sure, there is a balance needed, so it still stays Zero Hour, but really a lot of fundamental things would have change, that it wouldn't be Zero Hour anymore. And Cargo Planes are not the reason for it.

QUOTE
It was the community who posted and very much asked for SiZe to be part of this WS, and as Phoenix stated, there were spots available since there were people who qualified who did not want to participate in the tournament.

I know that SiZe was asked to play by the community. Give the people what they want. I understand it fully. Even it is for me technically wrong. And that there are not more participants is a problem by its own. I guess mostly caused by moving the World Series in the busiest time of the year for most people. At least for people that i know.

QUOTE
Can you give me one example where SiZe asks for preferential treatment?

No I can't, because i did not say that he asked for it.

QUOTE
Zero Hour is a game of little glitches and bugs - one of which is where your china dozer doesn't build your reactor. Fallen Empire, TD, and Lone Eagle maps are notorious for it. In addition, if a player tabs to look at stream chat, sometimes the keyboard stops working until you hit ALT key.
Unfortunately that's true. But it's a risk of the game. And it is expected that bugs and glitches happen. But would a player quit if a glitch happens in his favour in the first seconds? Probably not. Therefore a player should not quit when a glitch happens against him. Bad Luck. And besides that, there is no proof of any glitch or bug happening.
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@-DoMiNaToR-

QUOTE
Finals was meant to happen on 27th nov and was agreed many months ago, by me too. But for whatever reason that date has now passed and I’m on a work trip with 500 people in Turkey the next few days as WS was meant to already be finished.

Yes, and that is no fault of yours. Just again, real consequences because of deadline handling.

QUOTE
It seems people are happy to complain but also happy to see every game in the whole WS casted, happy to see zh more active than in a long time, more prize money than has ever been seen online, lots of positive stuff but still want to focus on negatives

Well, it's true that Zero Hour is the most active since a very long time. But i don't see it just as complaining, i just want to bring attention to these organisational issues. And if you would read correctly i lead with the positive things happening in Zero Hour. But saying you can't focus on negative things just because there are positive things, is short sighted and like ignoring real world issues, just because i live an unaffected privileged life.

QUOTE
let’s DQ whoever can’t make it ye? That’ll be epic.

Yes.

QUOTE
Also regarding technical issues during a finals. Do you watch like csgo or sc2 when there is technical issues? Game gets paused or rematched. Or I guess you don’t watch other e sports?

No i don't watch CS:GO or SC2, because it bores me. But i watch other games like Pokemon Battles occasionally and motorsport. It's different to Zero Hour because a game state can be reloaded. An auto save function would solve a lot problems in Zero Hour (idea for Patch). And in Motorsort a technical error or glitch in a car means often falling out of the race.
And CS:GO and SC2 Tournaments are also different because the big Games happen live in person and the organisators are responsible for a lot of the techy stuff. We could have had a live final even sponsored, but for some reason you declined the sponsors offer, because flying during covid when flying was possible would be somehow too much, as i remember correctly. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

QUOTE
If you watched zh over the years you would know size is one of the most fair players the game has ever seen. But guess ur new

Well i know that SiZe is one of the most fair players ever. Never causes any issues or any other problems. But that has nothing to do with the issue.
And i played Zero Hour from 2006 until 2010 on GameSpy Servers under the name of THOR. Now there is a player named google who took my old name haha. But i remember the days where you had to put in an unique serial number or otherwise GameSpy would not accept you. And the lobbies were a little more full, but even then everything happened in the 2v2 lobby. I just did not participate in any forums or community stuff since i was a literal child back then. And i play now since 2020, because out of nostalgia i searched for game play videos and found yours with an explanation video how to play in todays time Zero Hour. Thanks to your efforts and engagement i'm now here complaining smile.gifsmile.gif

QUOTE
Now there’s some imaginary barriers preventing beginners from getting into the game lol.
The game has never been easier to get into, you know why? 100s of tutorials online how to install the game and how to play each faction. None of that existed 7 years ago.

But please tell us more about this imaginary barrier you invented in your head

Sure, again yes, the game is as easy to play as ever as a new player. That was not my point. But participation in the community or competing in Tournaments might be off putting or scaring away newcomers, due to handling of mentioned issues.
---------------------------------------------------------

@xezon

QUOTE
In my opinion SiZe is lucky that tournament host did not decide for loss after the set. Could there have been bug? Yes. Do we have 100% evidence for it? No. Is that situation Fargo's fault or problem? No. Fargo rightfully asked for answers. Yes Fargo could have been generous/sportsman and said: "No problem, no harm done, lets rematch". But he is competitive player and wants to win. Best case would have been if Fargo won the last match. Now we have situation where the winner threw the decider but still won.

As for match delay: I am also surprised about the proposed 2.5 week delay. A month ago or so I was asked if I want to stream final match. I turned this down, because I am not in good form due lack of practice. Dominator + bl9r stream looks like good fit because they have presented all other tournament matches as well and present to big audiences.

I think certain things needs to be reviewed after tournament has ended. In previous years some things worked out much better than this year. The feedback in the opening post is valid.

Agree 100%, i guess you got my points +++
---------------------------------------------------------

Thanks if you read all of this wall of text smile.gif

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# 14fastAiR Nov 30 2022, 21:51 PM
"i have a black screen, sorry" then quit, that's the best thing to do if u fck up

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# 15-DoMiNaToR- Nov 30 2022, 22:05 PM
csgo and sc2 bores you but you wrote about it in first post and actually don’t watch it lol ok. Well they are obviously way bigger esports than zh and if there is a technical issue the game is paused usually for very long time until all sorted and sometimes round restarted if nothing happened.

So better not compare to csgo and such when actually you don’t have a clue about that … and when you combine that with the fact that size is the fairest player in zh history, often giving rematches to opponents when he already has won a game, then you can guarantee there is no malicious activity.

If you wanna compare further to other e sports lemme know

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# 16xezon Nov 30 2022, 23:17 PM
Also keep in mind that the organizers here are in it with their passion for the community. Feedback should always account for this. So comparing our humble events with others where the hosts make big bank is not so fair.

To give perspective, here is list with high value events:
https://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

You can assume that the organizers will pay themselves a salary and thus can dedicate much more time and energy into event.

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# 17Phoenix- Nov 30 2022, 23:28 PM
These comparisons are so out of touch with the reality 😂😂😂

CDl Cod League :

A roster spot costs 25.5 million dollars per team.
They played a 500k warzone tournament this year sponsored by Activision. One of the 150 players accidentally left the match and they just replayed it.

We are talking about a 5k tournament where nobody has to pay anything at all.

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# 18Goauld Nov 30 2022, 23:48 PM
The games at the start had mostly an introductionary purpose to captivate the reader. In no way and means was the aim to compare Zero Hour organisation with big pro events with millions of money involved. It should be obvious without saying that we are not professional organizers nor players. The only comparison that can be drawn is that all of it are esports which had massive growth in the past years and months, same as Zero Hour, though the scale is of course smaller.
And yes i don't have a lot of knowledge about other esport series. But this does not invalidate the feedback at all. And is not point of the discussion.

Anyways i would even advocate, that organisers and hosts should get a cut from the tournament money, as compensation for their efforts.

And maybe someone can put Zero Hour tournaments into this database, might eventually attract some players if it's visible that there is 5k, 2k, 1k, regularly on the line. I mean there are other new recent games with much smaller price pools on that site that xezon posted.

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# 19Fargo Nov 30 2022, 23:55 PM
QUOTE(OoE-ExCaL^ @ Nov 30 2022, 19:54 PM) *

I will reply in two parts as if I have read this correctly, most of your complaints are directed at me and size specifically, with particular emphasis on SiZe. Part 1 answering about myself, part 2 commenting on your SiZe accusations.

Part 1 ExCaL - Accusations of "asking for preferential treatment" and missing deadlines | opposition to new patch

-Missing deadlines:
Early rounds - QF:
Up until the 3rd round, I think I was the first if not one if the first players to complete their sets well before any deadline. Then came the quarter-final stage, which I and streamer was ready to play before the organised Community Outpost Lan, however Stazzz specifically asked for extra time to prepare (he can confirm this himself if you want evidence). This match was then played the week post-lan at everyone's earliest convenice.

Semi-Finals:
Both semi finals were played on the same day (albeit a few days after the proposed deadline). This was due to work/study commitments of people involved. Nevertheless, how can you say myself and SiZe should be disqualifed when everyone missed the deadline here?

Bronze and Grand Finals:
DoMiNaToR is the elected streamer for the Grand Final, and last year quite frankly did an absolutely exceptional presentation. He is working towards the same thing this year, but can't start work on that until next week as he is away on a work trip. Obviously he can't prepare until the semi finals have been played.
Fargo actually wanted to play yesterday without a streamer so he can disappear into the abyss of retirement asap for two weeks. But again, some scheduling, organisation of streamer and date compromise needs to take place.

-Asking for preferential treatment?
Could you give me one example where I have asked/demanded for preferential treatment during this World Series? I qualified as rank 1, was very punctual with deadlines until the above mention circumstances.

-Opposition to new patch
The argument of "old players are opposed to patch as they would lose their edge" simply doesn't fly. I have been part of previous patch testing tournaments (and won them all). My main concerns which were outlined in many posts in the patch topic were:

- Reasoning for certain balance changes
- Amount of changes for community adoption
Part 2 BiG^SiZe - Accusations of "asking for preferential treatment", missing deadlines and rule breaking

-Asking for preferential treatment?
It was the community who posted and very much asked for SiZe to be part of this WS, and as Phoenix stated, there were spots available since there were people who qualified who did not want to participate in the tournament. Therefore, SiZe and other players were drafted into this event. Can you give me one example where SiZe asks for preferential treatment?

-Rule Breaking
Zero Hour is a game of little glitches and bugs - one of which is where your china dozer doesn't build your reactor. Fallen Empire, TD, and Lone Eagle maps are notorious for it. In addition, if a player tabs to look at stream chat, sometimes the keyboard stops working until you hit ALT key. Are you seriously saying SiZe should default be knocked out of final for quitting after 1s? SiZe has shown fair play, respect and sportsmanship in Zero Hour for the best part of 20 years.

-Missing deadlines:
Maybe SiZe can answer here as I haven't followed his earlier round game arrangement, but again the semi finals were organised on the same day. So your argument of punishing the two players in the final makes no sense at all when the Bronze match has to be played before the Grand Final

I wanted to play without streamer? Vivid Unable to play almost at any time and yet you try to bite me again she Ur guy delays semi final and now final? Shit man, what a lying scum you are

Vivid didn't want to play so far away, so we came to conclusion we could play if there would be streamer, anti said no, also only after this gave an idea about streaming off replays as again vivid Unable to play at any time, so yeah keep lying poor guy

And his argument does make sense, it's you, vivid and size delayed games, simple as that

This post has been edited by Fargo: Nov 30 2022, 23:58 PM

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# 20-DoMiNaToR- Nov 30 2022, 23:56 PM
Ok so disqualify vivid and Fargo and give the money to the tournament host. Yep this is gonna be wicked for zero hour. Absolutely fucking awesome. Definitely will increase accessibility of beginners to zero hour. When do we start?

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