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Rise of the Witch King

Generalist (personal) overview of 2.0.2 v 8.4 + ideas outside box

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# 1TomaSkTemplar Jan 28 2021, 06:13 AM
After 4 years of not playing any bfme game, (and unable to correctly install bfme 2 from my 2 DVDs (didnt bother with rotwk, many others like 2142 wouldnt even finish running setup from physical DVDs)) so after first playing bfme 1 and the 1.06, then going on bfme 2, because I remembered the thing ran much better than the EA steal (rotwk). 1.06 is classic, but I tried 1.09 and I wasnt very happy with the gameplay (all running too fast, dying too fast, the feel of the game wasnt right for me, HD graphics, ok, what always bothered me was swords that gondor used were 1-sided slashers instead of pointy double-edged ones. I believe that arnor soldiers in the campaign use the correct one, but neither bfme 1, 2 or rotwk bothered it seems. For me it was a big turnoff.

bfme 1/'latest' 1.06 (2014 I think) impression

I long ago played some low/early version of bfme 1, I played 1.06 and I heard that there was a speed-up in 1.04 what was most noticable, arrows essentially fly like bullets in longer-range firefights (where they drop in velocity significantly and you can see the tracers how they drop to the ground/ricochet) The only thing that makes melee worth using not in the combined arms combo with archers, is overpowered nuke cannons otherwise known as catapults and the like.(problems with them ? Too fast/infantry has trouble keeping up with them, too resistant to melee, even though crew thing is the main one, in melee it could be considered that it should become immobile, another thing, too fast projectile, too large aoe, perfect accuracy and full damage within AoE make for complete destruction of a much more expensive army with 1-2 catapults, with 5-6, in ai hands it is more like a patience test. There is much freedom in what you can combine, even if it is rather strange, I do like infantry/cav combo, cause they are the only combo that keeps moving, as well as the fact that you can keep cav alive even after charging 'speartips out'. Ideas about removing inf/cav combos dont come like a good idea to me. Still, mordor in this regard could have haradrim/soldier of rhun for something more interesting) I like the idea of javeliners being shield counters, while archers fill more generalist anticav/antipike (anti-unshielded) I also like Rhun soldiers having shields, like in the film, the tower guards ones seem rather too big/shield wall usage/put them to the ground type of pavise. Rohan lacks pikes, but considering that cav cant be crushed (mumak would like a word perhaps tongue.gif but then you still have possibilities)

bfme 2 impression

Bfme 2. To me, counters compared to bfme 1 were made of complete gamey-nonsense, counters made of 'because we say so'. When 1.05-06 dropped, I considered that a two-sided process of going both forward and backward. Swordsmen became useful, but them running cavalry-lite and suddenly countering a type of building ??? And resource buildings suddenly were disappearing rather fast. Was it 1.05 that introduced Siege scatter ? Scatter is good, but full damage across large aoe is terrible. Then there is the problem of low tier archers walking into melee range of enemy melee because their hordes sizes were increased, range reduced. (with aggresive stance too, as well as variable terrain became factor)
There were multiple directions into differentiating between units that are always useful with differing role (case with bfme 1) instead there was this early vs later usage. Swordsmen were now pretty good but not a generalist unit. That seems to be the case with archers - devolving into pike/archer combp/spam.

RotWK impression

RotWK, well, I did play on ladder back on the terrible 2.00 1.04 bfme 2 counters equivalent, the ang axe throwes/ dwarf axemen spam ? Just terrible/hilarious gameplay. Omnipotent archers were back, sword type infantry weak to everything, well, encounter pike + archer vs sword + archer ? Who wins ? Pike + archer, cause pikes are the generalist infantry that survives arrows so much better. I seem to remember that shielded swordsmen in all the defensive possibilities were still unable to deal with any machinegunning archers back then to do meaningful damage. (immersion-breaker like bfme rangers firing semi-auto) Sword from frome 1 generalist became a specialist (pun intended) where it was still outside of usable zone, because in larger big battle encounters, pikes had better range than swords, even with the resist they did little damage in their specialist role, but since melee in rotwk was mostly for blocking approach, archers did all the damage. and took most of the exp. (there could have been damage done exp, offmap powers do gain exp from damage done, not kills) Still, there is like no way to level up your infantry because melee is too static, or that infantry just goes to its max attack range, prohibiting others within horde to use their weapons? Could this be prevented ? So, how the game works prevents most large hordes of swordsmen in using their weapon. the larger the horde, the more they block one another. Pikes have the range luxury along with better ranged survivability so the obvious choice is the pike. Even though they had shields taken away. (makes perfect sense, well, not really and its painful to watch shielded and facing right direction infantry getting shreded while pikes no shields, were like 2x survivability vs arrows) They suddenly have superior armor so why having a shield right ...

2.02 'overtures' /impressions

then there are elite, usually smaller horde swordsmen, like the unbugged half trolls and black numenors, who dont feel like almost useless cannon fodder. (if they can have heavy armor + shield wall + defensive) But considering in the 2.02 8.4, the ai snipes units, as competent players would, those shield walls dont do much give to you, unless you use them with aggressive, so they get a bit better radius of action once their horde disintegrates to search for target in melee, if the target is not on top of them.

Fortresses are really nice, something that is reminiscent of bfme 1, though no walkable walls ... well, that would make for a mod I guess. However, I played as Men vs Mordor Hard on Celduin, usually it took me 2 hours or 2 h 30m straight. The start ? make some eco, (hard does cheat with resource, you cant get 25+/ above if you have more than 400CP lv 1 farm) and it does. Still, AI is starvable of resources not something I remember old EA AI, Problem with fighting AI is it sees your farms, if you dont archer-kill it, they ignore you and your melee (infantry) will follow all the way. So, another big plus to archer spam, they are THE units that actually destroy stuff. If you could add antistructure autoengage, as some button so you dont have to manually target each of the many structures, that would be a big plus for me at least. (like in bfme 1)

Sim city is the way I learned from playing vs easy at first. Still, I was able to defend, later on vs hard. But I was generally unable to approach their base. I got a wipe each time, so I understood that attrition was the name of the game, I then made 5 archery ranges, 3 barracks, put 20 rangers on each one. towers guards less. AI stopped rebuilding its resource buildings. Each time a meteor, then fortress spire wiped most of my stuff so AI units finished the job. (fire underground snake, shallnotpass winged thing, barricade) I did no retreats, just built lots of statues. I didnt use bombard ships, (not sure if I needed to make them face right direction one game prior) I destroyed all tech buildings so I wouldnt be overwhelmed with unit stream. If AI built more fortresses, I am pretty sure that I would have been unable to reach them at all. And AI aiming its powers is very often on good spot. Try to spread out ? Their blob runs through you. Blob yourself, (still archers tend to overkill this way) and you get a wipe. But this is still to my understanding still better, you just need more production (and closer to them) so your replacements get there faster. They have the escalation superiority, because their losses are replaced when made, they are in action much earlier than your stuff. Solution, more production, more archers, so you dont fight, you wipe out everything. (because AI doesnt build outside its fortress area) Non-archers are thus non-optimal, some pikemen need be there still, because archer range is somewhat strange so they dont always fire before being cavalry-charged.

I did manage to win but it was too much of an effort. The next game I played the same, except I increased CP to 2x (never played before that way) due to increased pop size, AI didnt build the bombardment fortress spire, (no excess resources I guess) and the game was just meager 40 minutes. I only used 1500 CPs. Such a 'disappointment' smile.gif If AI built walls and towers, catapults too, at maximum range from the fortress, 1000 CP as Men at least, is imo impossible to break. Sure, less resources for units, less offmap power points, but at the same time, serious HP, blockers, no squishy damage dealers. You could say I played the wrong map, cause it was chokepointy, without those it would have been even harder imo.

All in all, the patch doesnt feel like base RotWK, (2.00 tongue.gif) It is superior. Against AI, large fortresses+walls are nice, I dont like any ranged siege in any bfme game, so if nerfed to near-oblivion, I would be fine with it. To me, in many cases siege feels like some siege tank, you cant cut it down with infantry, cant shoot its crew, it tends to be fire resistant, they really in many cases (not as much in 2.02 8.4) feel like Generals Nuke cannon reskin. You dont always have aircraft to kill them (eagles) cavalry needs to survive to get to it, and it still is like siege weapons are cut down with swords, instead of having their crews taken out. This is my narrative, sure, but in generals/ZH that arty was squishy. In BFME games, arty in most cases feels like armor of Emperor Overlord, and accuracy / damage between nuke cannon and land-based (+ guided, not just coordinates) cruise missile. Why would you build it if it was useless ? BFME 2 has too many T1 units that are so inferior to T2 that there are very few qualities that would make you chooose so.

Still, one could say, but look at bfme 1.06 patch. They have gondor archers, 350 range, rangers 370 range. Fire arrows give inferior fire damage (since their cost is the same) to even out the ranger much higher fire rate after second arrow or so.

Yet, there, rangers cost 20 pop, archers cost 10. Archers and soldiers combo costs 20 pop, so you have additional meatshield. Tooltip says rangers vs monsters and something, archers vs something else, cavalry I believe.(rangers vs cavalry as well, cavalry and monsters essentially have the same function anyway)

if you went archer-only you could have 20 archer battalions, which have better range, are smaller, so they dont march right on top of enemy to fire their first arrow even if there is a bunch of them.

1 type of leadership, buff, spells, I think, well, all factions might then look more like copy-paste, since all you need is just 1 leadership for adjacent units. This prevents the oooh gandalf +200% exp overkills.

Level ups seem straight forward, +10% *4 hp and damage. Hero unit hordes get 5% per level, so at 10, they are + 45%.

but what use is level of units when one-click wonder just destroys your work, hard to do with infantry if youre not grantng exp. To lose army is not at all hard, most damage is from aoe weaponry, or archers. Archers in theory should be able to land flanking shots for increased damage as well, armor is thinnest in the back, incentive to use maneuver. (or for more op usage of callins)

Not sure if possible, or how feasible, archers could have damage drop off based on range. Lesser impact, fire less burny tongue.gif To simulate that close-range fire is preferable. At the same time you could have accuracy issues at range as well. Just like siege weaponry. There should be something, like direct fire range vs lob bombard range. Bombard should have lowered arrow velocity. (starting a fire with it ? biggrin.gif) Much of what I write is basically a decrease in ranged kill power, but if this is decreased, then melee needs to be made stronger.

Accuracy/damage decrease at range could make it possible to have low tier archers fire at the same range or similar to T2 archers. Difference would be in hit chance. (elites have better bows, arrows) With level, you could increase accuracy so low tiered archers are still much worse, but at least they dont need to hug enemies before trying to shoot.

Then there is the thing, that you mostly shoot through your own ranks. No friendly fire. There could be something that gives enemy either a chance to evade ('friendly hit'/inaccuracy due to not seeing/direct firing on enemy) Not the case with higher than average creatures like trolls mumaks and perhaps cavalry. It does look like increased survivability in most places. More likely would be a price rebalance, or simply call it a 'mod'.

Not sure if many of my ideas are applicable, but I think that there are quite some that are not too bad smile.gif What I do not like in bfme 2/ rotwk is insistence on crap-tier and ok (late game) units, instead of having the crap-tier some role that keeps the unit still valuable and not a CP waste.

This post has been edited by TomaSkTemplar: Jan 28 2021, 06:23 AM

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# 2trucky Jan 30 2021, 11:16 AM
Dude I don't know who you are, where you're from, what you did... but you really are an 'outside the box' thinker to risk sheer humiliation of talking about Sim City in a The Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle Earth Two The Rise of the Witch King Unofficial Gamereplays Patch Two Point Zero Two Version Eight Point Four Point Zero forum. I guess I disagree with nearly everything you said - for example I think (everybody thinks) RotWK is much cleaner game and better balance than bfme2v1.06 - but you do bring up one good point in my opinion about unit leveling... The main benefit is they self-heal which they get already at level 2 and it would be nice to have a more significant bonus in terms of unit strength when the units are levels 3-5. But can you imagine how utterly wank it would be if you summoned THE FREAKING BALROG and it didn't even kill the level 4 mithlond sentry that you haven't been able to kill all game because it has a stupid fucking porcupine formation that takes ZERO SKILL to use and is so anti-action it's like watching that movie Solaris with George Clooney where literally NOTHING HAPPENS THE ENTIRE TIME. So, TomaSkTemplar, if that even is your real name, don't take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks, I know a lamer Elf main when I see one, and you are just like the rest of those hero spamming, onhost Lindon abusing, Treebeard-rushing LAMERS.

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# 3Imperialist Jan 30 2021, 11:46 AM
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# 4Clever Jan 31 2021, 13:22 PM
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# 5SeñorEcthelion Feb 2 2021, 01:46 AM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 30 2021, 08:16 AM) *

Dude I don't know who you are, where you're from, what you did... but you really are an 'outside the box' thinker to risk sheer humiliation of talking about Sim City in a The Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle Earth Two The Rise of the Witch King Unofficial Gamereplays Patch Two Point Zero Two Version Eight Point Four Point Zero forum. I guess I disagree with nearly everything you said - for example I think (everybody thinks) RotWK is much cleaner game and better balance than bfme2v1.06 - but you do bring up one good point in my opinion about unit leveling... The main benefit is they self-heal which they get already at level 2 and it would be nice to have a more significant bonus in terms of unit strength when the units are levels 3-5. But can you imagine how utterly wank it would be if you summoned THE FREAKING BALROG and it didn't even kill the level 4 mithlond sentry that you haven't been able to kill all game because it has a stupid fucking porcupine formation that takes ZERO SKILL to use and is so anti-action it's like watching that movie Solaris with George Clooney where literally NOTHING HAPPENS THE ENTIRE TIME. So, TomaSkTemplar, if that even is your real name, don't take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks, I know a lamer Elf main when I see one, and you are just like the rest of those hero spamming, onhost Lindon abusing, Treebeard-rushing LAMERS.

you should watch the original andrei tarkovsky solaris. so beuatiful and nothing happens PROPERLY.


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# 6Brownbear55 Feb 10 2021, 23:53 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 30 2021, 12:16 PM) *

Dude I don't know who you are, where you're from, what you did... but you really are an 'outside the box' thinker to risk sheer humiliation of talking about Sim City in a The Lord of the Rings The Battle for Middle Earth Two The Rise of the Witch King Unofficial Gamereplays Patch Two Point Zero Two Version Eight Point Four Point Zero forum. I guess I disagree with nearly everything you said - for example I think (everybody thinks) RotWK is much cleaner game and better balance than bfme2v1.06 - but you do bring up one good point in my opinion about unit leveling... The main benefit is they self-heal which they get already at level 2 and it would be nice to have a more significant bonus in terms of unit strength when the units are levels 3-5. But can you imagine how utterly wank it would be if you summoned THE FREAKING BALROG and it didn't even kill the level 4 mithlond sentry that you haven't been able to kill all game because it has a stupid fucking porcupine formation that takes ZERO SKILL to use and is so anti-action it's like watching that movie Solaris with George Clooney where literally NOTHING HAPPENS THE ENTIRE TIME. So, TomaSkTemplar, if that even is your real name, don't take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks, I know a lamer Elf main when I see one, and you are just like the rest of those hero spamming, onhost Lindon abusing, Treebeard-rushing LAMERS.


You love to see it.

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