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# 1trucky Jan 5 2019, 05:31 AM
If u pick random make it hidden from enemies.

Too many ppl picking their faction and makes the game boring especially in 2v2/3v3/4v4.

Pls change this sh!t back now it is restricting build order and ruining the game.

This post has been edited by trucky: Jan 5 2019, 05:34 AM

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Game: Rise of the Witchking 2.01


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# 2Sabriael Jan 5 2019, 12:59 PM
That is your opinion.

This is mine:
Don't change it back, let players play the faction(s) they WANT to play rather than taking random to avoid disadvantaging themselves.

If everyone keeps choosing their sides, then it means they are choosing the factions they want to play, and not choosing the ones they don't. Which means we're producing players who know how to play specific sides better than they would have otherwise, playing them more skillfully with the increased practice. So we're going to get better play overall.

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# 3Mako Jan 5 2019, 13:18 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 05:31 AM) *

Pls change this sh!t back now it is restricting build order and ruining the game.


I will tell this for the last time.

If you don't know vs who you are, you will do your best start strategy that is only one (the generic start vs a generic faction). Knowing vs who you are playing, you can play with his mind.

But i agree it is an huge change. We don't base our balancment based on 3v3 and 4v4 even if we consider the effects of change of 1v1 and 2v2.

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# 4Andy San Jan 5 2019, 13:40 PM
Learn to adapt. Hidden factions makes it boring because always the same safe build order.

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# 5Muadd Jan 5 2019, 13:51 PM
QUOTE(Andy San @ Jan 5 2019, 16:40 PM) *

Learn to adapt. Hidden factions makes it boring because always the same safe build order.

I understand everything but calling it boring. Holy moly its quite the opposite. Or not quite it is the opposite. Still the most retarded and worst change ever seen. Had big part of killing the game

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# 6DJ_Premier Jan 5 2019, 15:55 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 05:31 AM) *
it is restricting build order and ruining the game.
No, the opposite.

Posts: 422

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 7trucky Jan 5 2019, 20:56 PM
QUOTE(Mako @ Jan 5 2019, 14:18 PM) *

I will tell this for the last time.

If you don't know vs who you are, you will do your best start strategy that is only one (the generic start vs a generic faction). Knowing vs who you are playing, you can play with his mind.

But i agree it is an huge change. We don't base our balancment based on 3v3 and 4v4 even if we consider the effects of change of 1v1 and 2v2.


if u think there is a 'best' start for each faction vs generic, then u must also think there is a 'best' start for each matchup. so u think there are only 28 (7+6+5+4+3+2+1) different games if both players build order is optimal.

^ so u see your argument is wrong because this is not how the game works. because there is probably no such thing as an optimal build.

u need to look at it like this:

let's say each faction has 3 ways of starting the game in terms of build order:
You can build A, B, and C and Mordor can build X, Y, and Z.

And let's say vs Mordor that A is best, B is next, and C is bad. But vs some other factions choosing build path A is more risky.
And for Mordor his build orders are X, Y, and Z, and he must choose X vs your faction because he knows A is so strong against Y and Z.

If u know u are vs Mordor u can choose build path A or B and Mordor choose build path X.
If u don't know who u are vs, u can choose A, B, or C. Also Mordor can choose X, Y, or Z.

So if u know the factions you get:
A vs X and sometimes B vs X.
And if u don't know the factions you get:
AvsX, AvsY, AvsZ, BvsX, BvsY, BvsZ, CvsX, CvsY, or CvsZ -- plus the transition once you discover the enemy faction can happen at different times in the game ie u can hide your faction for longer, or u can scout at the start.

So with only 3 build order examples u have at least 9 times more variations in a game. Now think how many build orders there are - probably more like 10 build orders each faction for the first 2-3mins of the game?

ALso... WE HAVE NO CHOICE right now. If u want to play 1v1 and take random and know faction - just tell your opponent in the first 5 seconds. Or make a toggle on/off in lobby.

It is probably why Dwarves are underpowered right now because they have a more binary playstyle... it's not a coincidence everyone QQ about dwarves. Hiding random is much better in 2v2/3v3/4v4 and I have just shown how it is better in 1v1 also or do u still disagree?

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# 8trucky Jan 5 2019, 21:03 PM
maybe there is even 10000 build orders because u can position buildings in different places in the map banana.gif

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# 9DJ_Premier Jan 5 2019, 22:55 PM
I still disagree because your logic is flawed.
QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 20:56 PM) *

if u think there is a 'best' start for each faction vs generic, then u must also think there is a 'best' start for each matchup. so u think there are only 28 (7+6+5+4+3+2+1) different games if both players build order is optimal.

^ so u see your argument is wrong because this is not how the game works. because there is probably no such thing as an optimal build.
It's not the case of a 'best' start, it's a case of the safest start that you would be forced to do, i.e simple rax start a majority of times unless you like to play a game of chance a try something wacky. I personally prefer as little luck as possible in deciding who wins the game whistling.gif

QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 20:56 PM) *
So if u know the factions you get:
A vs X and sometimes B vs X.
And if u don't know the factions you get:
AvsX, AvsY, AvsZ, BvsX, BvsY, BvsZ, CvsX, CvsY, or CvsZ -- plus the transition once you discover the enemy faction can happen at different times in the game ie u can hide your faction for longer, or u can scout at the start.

So with only 3 build order examples u have at least 9 times more variations in a game. Now think how many build orders there are - probably more like 10 build orders each faction for the first 2-3mins of the game?
Too simplified. If you forget the Mordor example, what if Y and Z are things like cav start which you will lose 100% vs Dwarf and Ang lets say, that means with this blind random BO you lose 2/7 times doing that start = approx 30% . You would be foolish to ever leave that up to luck with such odds so you are forced to do BO X every time or face an instant BO loss.

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# 10trucky Jan 5 2019, 23:21 PM
You guys can do better than contradicting yourselves?

QUOTE(DJ_Premier @ Jan 5 2019, 23:55 PM) *

I still disagree because your logic is flawed.
It's not the case of a 'best' start...


QUOTE(Mako @ Jan 5 2019, 14:18 PM) *

I will tell this for the last time.

If you don't know vs who you are, you will do your best start strategy that is only one (the generic start vs a generic faction).


banana.gif don't talk to me about logic when you didn't read my post banana.gif

we changing this shit back already or what?


QUOTE(DJ_Premier @ Jan 5 2019, 23:55 PM) *

I still disagree because your logic is flawed.
It's not the case of a 'best' start, it's a case of the safest start that you would be forced to do, i.e simple rax start a majority of times unless you like to play a game of chance a try something wacky. I personally prefer as little luck as possible in deciding who wins the game whistling.gif

Too simplified. If you forget the Mordor example, what if Y and Z are things like cav start which you will lose 100% vs Dwarf and Ang lets say, that means with this blind random BO you lose 2/7 times doing that start = approx 30% . You would be foolish to ever leave that up to luck with such odds so you are forced to do BO X every time or face an instant BO loss.

U think building a 'not-the-safest' start is wacky - LOL - it's playing the game with more variety - which is the whole point. Playing safe is boring imo. You sound like a boring guy who likes playing a boring game where you know the enemy faction.

You also made my example even more simple by saying build order = which pb do u take. That's not BO. BO is way more than just what pb. It's where you put all your shit, what % you settle for from rbs and why, when to scout, how fast to find out the enemy faction, what direction you run your first units, if you want to creep or not, what timing attack will be strong, when to use first ppt, etc

There is risk/reward in all starts. It's how you play it that counts.

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# 11Special::Guest Jan 5 2019, 23:57 PM
You can take a look at thread called "revealed random".
There was a huge discussion about that, first it was only "a test" for a new patch, then they decided to keep the change, even tho the community voted otherwise (not saying community is always right, just pointing this fact out).
Personally I'm against the change, game was much more fun for me to play when random was not revealed.

This post has been edited by Special::Guest: Jan 6 2019, 00:03 AM

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# 12DJ_Premier Jan 6 2019, 01:43 AM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 23:21 PM) *

You guys can do better than contradicting yourselves?

What? Ourselves? You realise we are different people lel, or do you just group us all as one as we oppose your viewpoint?

QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 23:21 PM) *
U think building a 'not-the-safest' start is wacky - LOL - it's playing the game with more variety - which is the whole point. Playing safe is boring imo.

It would only be wack in a hidden random. Your post is completely twisted. If you like variety, as i do, then you'd be in favour of revealed random, your fighting for the wrong cause.

QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 23:21 PM) *
You also made my example even more simple by saying build order = which pb do u take. That's not BO. BO is way more than just what pb. It's where you put all your shit, what % you settle for from rbs and why, when to scout, how fast to find out the enemy faction, what direction you run your first units, if you want to creep or not, what timing attack will be strong, when to use first ppt, etc

Yeah i know what BO's are thanks, those slight deviations are all possible only if the starting premise works. Unrevealed random takes out the entire tree of cav starting BO's, or, more generally, anything that might only work against a few select factions, how's that for variety?

QUOTE(trucky @ Jan 5 2019, 23:21 PM) *
There is risk/reward in all starts. It's how you play it that counts.

Yeah, except it's better if it's an informed risk/reward rather then one of blind luck. I cba going over the logic behind it a million times, read the previous topics about it.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 13MauH˙R Jan 6 2019, 03:10 AM
Short explanation for Revealed Random (again):

In a competitive RTS you want to win as many games as possible vs. all sorts of opponents.
The course (and sometimes even the outcome) of every match is determined in the earlygame, specifically the first 5 minutes, so every player who's serious about winning is always going to polish his build orders as much as possible to not get behind, not have unnecessary losses, reduce the risk of taking damage vs. all sorts of things as much as he can.

When a player does that, in what enviroment is this (as polished as possible) starting build order's variety reduced more:
1. When he has to be prepared for all the things that seven possible factions can do to him (Unrevealed Random)
2. When he has to play within the realm of possibilities of one known match-up (Revealed Random)

If someone hasnt thought about this too much yet then your first guess might be 1, cause your mind goes like: more possible factions -> more variety right? But that's only if you wanna play Rock-Paper-Scissors.

If you go in with the competitive mindset and wanna be able to sorta deal with all the possible standard starts like Uruks, any variety of Dwarf rushes, Goblins, but also with all the other things that gambly players would use like Spiderling starts, Cav starts, greedy creep or 4-farm starts, how many viable builds remain for the player who wants to keep his win ratio as high as possible?
What is the player who doesnt like to win by gambling going to do? He's going to have to play the same streamlined BO all the time until he knows what's up. And by then it still might be too late, cause there's no guarantee that every faction's safest build is gonna end up well vs. many things.

In other words, just because there can be a "AvsX, AvsY, AvsZ, BvsX, BvsY, BvsZ, CvsX, CvsY, or CvsZ", doesnt mean that competitive players would ever use half of these. This is just trying to sell gambling as fake variety.

So at this point you could come in and try the "boringness" arguement, aka "Why do you guys wanna play this super safe and boring stuff all the time?!"
We dont want to, but we would have to with unrevealed random because, as explained, if you're actually serious about improving and being competitive, you want your wins to rely as little as possible on gambles and luck.

The second arguement that then often comes in is that the variety in the UR build-orders simply comes in a bit later, like reactive 2nd PB and what not. How much other variety is already lost until you can make that decision though? If you're a non-gambly player in UR, how many Spiderling, Wargpack, Palace, Cav, etc -starts would you be able to use? None.
And to me a game's variety is improved much more clearly by the amount of different first PBs than by any choice that comes much later. A match that starts with Spiderlings looks very different from a game where I started with a Goblin Cave and then added Spiders somewhere down the way.
If you want proof for this, check how many of these exotic starts you can find in pre v.5 replays and compare it with now.

What I understand is that for some players the fun lies in trying to react to many potential things, even if these things could be a blindcounter to what you're doing or the opposite. But what you have to understand is that reducing chance and optimizing the circumstances for competitive approaches to the game take priority in 2.02 over the fun you get out of chaotic earlygames.





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# 14TaDa! Jan 6 2019, 09:24 AM
RR is full of gamble and luck as well and seems like Rock-Paper-Scissors too. Because failing in predicting enemy bo and thus choosing wrong your own bo(even if u executed it perfectly doesnt matter) has nothing to do with player skill level. Its obvious for those who tried other rtses where scouting allowed from the start so u can be surprised only if u scouted bad so luck and gamble factor hardly means something there. Unlike rotwk, but thats a salt of this game. But it doesnt mean that RR isnt better than UR, because despite it still has some amount of gamble and luck factor, its still 7 times less than with UR. Also it doesnt disadvantage pickers unlike UR.

This post has been edited by TaDa!: Jan 6 2019, 09:42 AM

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# 15Mako Jan 6 2019, 16:57 PM
Yeah i agree with dj and i'm wrong. The best start (more logic one) is the safest one. But it can be inefficent if you are vs a specific faction. So on an other point of view isn't the best start.

We can play on those point of view. Special guest said another truth. Go to get that thread or read again solas's text.

We won't revert it and for me we already waste too much time to explain points of view (each sides).

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# 16StrayHeart Jan 7 2019, 12:47 PM
QUOTE(Muadd @ Jan 5 2019, 14:51 PM) *

I understand everything but calling it boring. Holy moly its quite the opposite. Or not quite it is the opposite. Still the most retarded and worst change ever seen. Had big part of killing the game

+1

QUOTE(Special::Guest @ Jan 6 2019, 00:57 AM) *

Personally I'm against the change, game was much more fun for me to play when random was not revealed.

+1

For me the game has become much easier since I know the armies. Playing against random had that risk of choosing particular and risky build order.

But who cares since the staff always know better smile.gif what's funny is that you always stand with that statement like one man, so what are we talking about smile.gif

Imo this change should not be ever made if that big part of community was against it.

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# 17Ab3r` Jan 7 2019, 12:57 PM
This was a painful read.

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# 18Muadd Jan 7 2019, 22:07 PM
Ok i cba reading everything bcuz this is probably the 5th thread of the same subject but ill add something to my glorious post.
After all this time I agree RR is more unfair. A lot more luck in RR yes no questioning about it. Example. You start blind cav, Enemy start blind pike. yes

BUT WHY ITS BAD
RR. Was part of the vanilla game. Yes vanilla feeling. yes
RR. Did not bring a single player to the game. But it removed players. Made people loooose motivation to the game.

There you go. HUGE

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# 19brabox Jan 9 2019, 10:39 AM
UR is kinda strange in that it adds more match-ups early game.
E.g.
Dwarf (random) vs Angmar (pick)
is quite different from
Dwarf (pick) vs Angmar (pick)

UR doesn't support replaying the same MU.
UR has fewer options for alternative BOs. E.g. fast rax in 1v1 is pretty much impossible with hidden factions.
UR has more luck in the early game. The odds of beating a good player simply by doing a high risk high reward strat (elf RC cav will get rekt by ang/dwarf but will likely beat Men/Isen/Mor) is higher than in RR.

RR reduces variety in terms of the time at which factions are revealed during the game.
RR changes the scouting mechanic.
RR is not vanilla.



Most important factors: RR is better for overall balance but UR is vanilla. Both are primary 2.02 goals so that makes this so difficult.

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# 20Excelsior Jan 9 2019, 12:10 PM
I won't jump into a detailed argument, but I'll point out that most people generally choose Random over picking. It's always been that way. However, that doesn't mean picking should be considered a taboo. This is patch 2.02. We don't create mini rules of what to do and what not to do.

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