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R13 Discussion

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# 1XXcyberstormXX Jun 4 2018, 12:15 PM
QUOTE(ToxicShock @ Jun 2 2018, 12:36 PM) *

We have never said that the patch cannot be used. We have just prevented it from being advertised. That was mostly applied to technique, given his earlier conduct.

Even if it is allowed to be used, if it is not supported by gr.org not enough players will use it. Which is why I haven't bothered to use it myself. It would be great if a solution would be found so that R13 meets all requirements to be supported by gr.org. Even if both parties have to sacrifice a little for one another. Ever since the Decade Cup the game has been more boring than ever. Even players who love the game have little motivation to get online. R13 could come in handy about now.

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# 2ToxicShock Jun 4 2018, 17:22 PM
It shouldn't be too difficult to get r13 supported here and on the ladder. This is what I am thinking at the moment:

It needs to come without Predatore's maps patched to anything other than r11. Predatore's maps need to be available in r11 for people that want that. It must not come attached to "Command Post", the use of which is prohibited on C&C:Online.

Before any of that is released to the public in a way we support, I would want to see the patch fully tested and in a final form. I am pretty sure that it is not in final form at present. Given the damage that these releases do and the amount of work that they cause, the number of updates needs to be kept to a minimum. CGF likes to make incremental changes. We are not in favour of that and want a finalised patch for the future.




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# 3nextonline Jun 4 2018, 17:34 PM
Why not package Predatore's maps into a 4th pack, and make it fully optional and separate from true 1.02+ advancements? This way it will never be affected by any future release, and whoever likes the maps so much doesn't even have to update them, ever again.

Considering the memo about current R13 proposal not triggering bans, it makes sense that competitive crowd upgrades, and plays on it for several months, which is basically a testing period, prior to GR-event supported release.

And honestly, if there's a new 1.02+, I would love to patch up some things in my maps, prior to final release; but I haven't done anything since the last message I received was that there would be no more supported releases.

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# 4ToxicShock Jun 4 2018, 17:45 PM
QUOTE(nextonline @ Jun 4 2018, 17:34 PM) *

Why not package Predatore's maps into a 4th pack, and make it fully optional and separate from true 1.02+ advancements? This way it will never be affected by any future release, and whoever likes the maps so much doesn't even have to update them, ever again.

Considering the memo about current R13 proposal not triggering bans, it makes sense that competitive crowd upgrades, and plays on it for several months, which is basically a testing period, prior to GR-event supported release.

And honestly, if there's a new 1.02+, I would love to patch up some things in my maps, prior to final release; but I haven't done anything since the last message I received was that there would be no more supported releases.


Yup, pretty much that. I don't want to see r13 posted on general release until after the testing is complete but I think that is what you are suggesting. We would have liked r12 to be the final patch but the refinery bug has spoiled that a bit. I am saying all of this on the footing that people actually like r13 because my understanding is that they do.

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# 5clarity888 Jun 4 2018, 18:31 PM
Happy to see that R13 is being discussed. Glad to see folks care enough about this community to make things work.

I apologize if this is the wrong place, but I wanted to make a quick look ahead point about maps. One of the big chasms in the community currently is predatore maps and R12/R13. A big part of balance is the map. If you are on Arena playing as ST and you base push, ST is incredible. if you are on tiberium rift, ST is weaker. We don't really have enough maps to expose weaknesses and strengths of different factions. E.g., cliffs and non traversable terrain make aircrafts more effective. Connecting maps to factions strengths and weaknesses is important. Tournaments do not account for this.... There is a lot more to this discussion so I'm going to get straight to the point:

As a community we need maps with variety. We need maps with cliffs which help aircraft, we need small maps which allow base pushes, we need maps that are campy. A good variety/assortment of maps will enable different KW gameplay. The community as a whole needs to push or provide incentives for folks to make new maps. Instead of looking back at predatores maps and that debate, we need to look ahead and continue developing new maps. Many thanks to technique and nextonline for making an effort and developing new maps. We need market KW to more map makers to develop a variety of maps; each map maker will have it's on flavor.

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# 6cnc315d34d Jun 4 2018, 18:54 PM
give it up cyber, you're just talking to a brick wall

take it from community veterans who have been loyal supporters of GR.org since 2007-2008.... this place simply is NOT the place it used to be


you know where real, constructive discussions happen (hint: and its not here) - feel free to hit me up anytime

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# 7ToxicShock Jun 4 2018, 19:22 PM
biggrin.gif

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# 8AggressivePanda Jun 4 2018, 19:58 PM
CGF, why can't you just make R13 like R12? Everyone thought R12 was highly successful and changed the game for the better. I really am not seeing it here. Maybe that could be because I haven't really been involved in these discussions but the solution seems so simple.

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# 9Technique Jun 4 2018, 20:13 PM
QUOTE(AggressivePanda @ Jun 4 2018, 21:58 PM) *

CGF, why can't you just make R13 like R12? Everyone thought R12 was highly successful and changed the game for the better. I really am not seeing it here. Maybe that could be because I haven't really been involved in these discussions but the solution seems so simple.

Less clutter, more stable and no confusion to have the main 1.02+ map pack installer be all the same version.

Predatore maps as an optional/additional download is the most logical solution.
Having different versions inside the main 1.02+ installer really isn't a point of discussion anymore at this point.



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# 10AggressivePanda Jun 4 2018, 21:35 PM
QUOTE(Technique @ Jun 4 2018, 20:13 PM) *

Less clutter, more stable and no confusion to have the main 1.02+ map pack installer be all the same version.

Predatore maps as an optional/additional download is the most logical solution.
Having different versions inside the main 1.02+ installer really isn't a point of discussion anymore at this point.

But it's hardly doing any real harm, is it? Being the way it is in R12.

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# 11Whitey Jun 4 2018, 21:41 PM
What he doesn't realise is... Everybody would download the R11 maps anyway.

This post has been edited by Whitey: Jun 5 2018, 00:20 AM

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# 12cnc315d34d Jun 4 2018, 22:00 PM
QUOTE(AggressivePanda @ Jun 4 2018, 20:58 PM) *

CGF, why can't you just make R13 like R12? Everyone thought R12 was highly successful and changed the game for the better. I really am not seeing it here. Maybe that could be because I haven't really been involved in these discussions but the solution seems so simple.

if theres one thing toxic is correct about - its that 'CGF prefers incremental/progressive changes'

and i dont mean progressive changes merely in the context of 1.02+, but in literally all walks of life smile.gif

i believe in progressively evolving systems where everything feels hassle-free and easy to use... and in the KW context, thats what Command Post stands for


i dont believe in persisting with decade-old legacy systems (especially when superior/modern alternatives CAN be developed) and having rules/regulations built around that - infact, if i did, i would have zero personal interest in contributing to this community... for me 1.02+ is simply ONE aspect or expression of the progressive change i'm interested in, but not the only form of it

thats a summary of my philosophy, so take what you from that

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# 13Technique Jun 5 2018, 07:43 AM
QUOTE(AggressivePanda @ Jun 4 2018, 23:35 PM) *

But it's hardly doing any real harm, is it? Being the way it is in R12.

The 3 different installers/map packs are now in 1.
Both for ease of use and stability reasons.

So having Predatore maps as a separate download makes a lot of sense - because the download would become quite large otherwise (Pred made a lot of maps you know ^^). And on top of that, mixing and matching different versions does make 1.02+ less stable.

And then there is the drama Toxic creates every time 1.02+ wants to make a change.
That really hampers 1.02+ development as well.

For example right now in R13 CGF added the no spike poker version of Dustbowl.
So people can try it in R13 - if it's liked it can stay there as an extra option or replace the original. (whichever the players want)
If it's not liked it can simply be removed again.
Things like this are great for the game in the long run - we can try things.

As for Command Post, it's our yr client - like on cncnet, which updates everyone automatically when you login.
So you start command post and it will tell you there is a newer version of 1.02+ and if you want to download it or not.
Again, I repeat - things like this are great for games in 2018.

Those sorta stuff is also what made Yuri's revenge popular again.
We can add things - try things - do new things all with very little hassle for anyone keeping the game fresh and ultimately making the best possible version of Kane's Wrath.

This post has been edited by Technique: Jun 5 2018, 08:25 AM



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# 14ToxicShock Jun 5 2018, 09:56 AM
That was a rather thinly veiled attempt to advertise Command Post, so best give that up.

Just to be clear though, Command Post is not (as it is presently devised) going to be supported on C&C:Online. In fact, it is prohibited.

The Kane's Wrath game client is capable of swapping out everybody's patches at log in too. That does not mean it is a good thing for certain players' (i.e. those with Command Post) map versions to be swapped in and out at a whim. There are other reasons why Command Post is not welcome on C&C:Online or on this site.

Anyway, this is a discussion about r13 and not Command Post.

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# 15Technique Jun 5 2018, 10:05 AM
QUOTE(ToxicShock @ Jun 5 2018, 11:56 AM) *

That was a rather thinly veiled attempt to advertise Command Post, so best give that up.

Just to be clear though, Command Post is not (as it is presently devised) going to be supported on C&C:Online. In fact, it is prohibited.

The Kane's Wrath game client is capable of swapping out everybody's patches at log in too. That does not mean it is a good thing for certain players' (i.e. those with Command Post) map versions to be swapped in and out at a whim. There are other reasons why Command Post is not welcome on C&C:Online or on this site.

Anyway, this is a discussion about r13 and not Command Post.

You can sign in and out of auto updates on command post.
Everything is an option.

Mine for example doesn't auto update anything, it just shows in the tabs that there is a new version.
And then I click on update latest.

Just replying because you sketch a factually wrong picture.
No one is ''swapping map packs in and out at a whim''.



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# 16OverLorD666 Jun 5 2018, 10:29 AM
Command post control should be handed over to gamereplays.

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# 17AggressivePanda Jun 5 2018, 14:27 PM
CGF, Toxic has set out how he thinks this could work without command post and that there is a chance providing CM is changed that it could be prohibited on cnc-online. Are you willing to make that compromise like you did with R12 or could you suggest an alternative way?

It seems to me though, that your not really interested in solving the problems we have here but rather, your intent on making them worse. So far you've made little to no effort to compromise or even start negotiating a way forward with even the smallest of give-way to the other side. If you really were intent on finding solutions you'd do just that.

This post has been edited by AggressivePanda: Jun 5 2018, 14:34 PM

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# 18Technique Jun 5 2018, 15:09 PM
QUOTE(AggressivePanda @ Jun 5 2018, 16:27 PM) *

CGF, Toxic has set out how he thinks this could work without command post and that there is a chance providing CM is changed that it could be prohibited on cnc-online. Are you willing to make that compromise like you did with R12 or could you suggest an alternative way?

It seems to me though, that your not really interested in solving the problems we have here but rather, your intent on making them worse. So far you've made little to no effort to compromise or even start negotiating a way forward with even the smallest of give-way to the other side. If you really were intent on finding solutions you'd do just that.

If gamereplays was smart they would actually work with a respected community member like CGF, and if they have any concerns they would tell him so he could do something bout it. But instead it's always just Toxic trying to take over, going ''do exactly what I tell you to do and stop further development - period, no further discussion''.

1.02+ is for everyone, not just the community Toxic controls (gamereplays/cnconline).
So it makes no sense to have 1 locked version for gamereplays/cnconline, while improvements keep being done to the official 1.02+ version.

Command post is the only logical way forward for 1.02+.
If a cool new map is made we can add it.
If some existing map needs changing, we can do that.
If a new bug arises - we can fix it.
All while easily keeping everyone on the latest version either by auto updates or at 1 click of a button if you don't like it to be automatic.

Imagine if Toxic started butting in on the awesome work Constable Chris been doing over at Ra3.
What, did you just find a fix for this annoying harvester bug? Well tough luck buddy... 1.12.6 wass the final version and anyone playing this map pack with harvester fix will get suspended from cnconline.
https://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...&p=10134773

That's whats happening here in KW - incase you didn't catch on yet.



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# 19ToxicShock Jun 5 2018, 15:23 PM
The difference is that Chris is sensible about the number of updates he makes, who he gets to test them (more than just a few of his friends) and how his updates get released. That is a huge difference and accounts for the fact that I have never had a problem with how he does things.

Anyway, no more sales pitch for Command Post, seriously.

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# 20AggressivePanda Jun 5 2018, 16:04 PM
QUOTE
If gamereplays was smart they would actually work with a respected community member like CGF, and if they have any concerns they would tell him so he could do something bout it. But instead it's always just Toxic trying to take over, going ''do exactly what I tell you to do and stop further development - period, no further discussion''.
Right so, I think and probably Toxic too thinks that it's quite a nifty tool. I understand what it does, which is a lot of things all in one. Most of which is already available to the community in a form which is separate but is imo, more intuitive.

The problem you're not getting is this - Command Post is being directly advertised as a tool to work with cnc-online, but its creators have made no effort to direct it to conform to the rules of the service it's been designed for. For example, I cannot simply create an app for the Apple store that shows pirated movies and expects them to change the rules to accommodate me? Obviously - I shouldn't need to say that.

My solution to this would be, keep the Command Post debate open and continue, with preferably the inclusion of all the Revora staff because it's their policies we're talking about. Then create R13 using the guidelines and tradition that we've used for many years, without issue. So that not only does the community not miss out on the patch (because surely that's what your trying to avoid with Command Post) and Command Post is in the process of being validated for CNC-Online. Which is what you probably want. I'm sure if your real goal here was to get this patch out to the mainstream community as fast as possible, you'd be doing it this way instead of using it as a bargaining chip.

This post has been edited by AggressivePanda: Jun 5 2018, 16:09 PM

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