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Random is now meaningless

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# 1Elrohir Jul 12 2020, 22:11 PM
I actually, finally booted the game up and played today with Ella. I am baffled by the fact that random is now completely meaningless. WHY THE **** are you able to see everyone's faction? Why on earth has this been implemented? Dwarves in 1v1 are now completely fucked because you have lost the element of surprise. No wonder there are so many 1 tricks out there, since random is now just a STRICT handicap.

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# 2Andybear Jul 13 2020, 00:16 AM
lmao
QUOTE(brabox @ Jun 11 2020, 13:42 PM) *


In short it was changed in order to facilitate a more thorough understanding of the game's balance since having unrevealed random means that early game build orders stayed narrow since u had to be prepared for everything/stay safe.

Now you can anticipate more which has raised the skill floor considerably which kinda hurts coming back. As far as dwarves suffering from it, well, that doesn't seem to be case, in fact the faction that has probably suffered the most has been Mordor but thats a different discussion.

This post has been edited by Andybear: Jul 13 2020, 00:22 AM

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# 3Miraak Jul 14 2020, 21:08 PM
when this was discussed, devs back then were indeed thinking dwarves might suffer from it
but actually dwarves are considered to be one of the strongest faction in the game with elves gobs and isen for 1v1, also their builders now have more vision wich make forward mines easier

This post has been edited by Miraak: Jul 14 2020, 21:17 PM

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# 4Excelsior Jul 15 2020, 12:52 PM
Dwarves are actually one of the most powerful factions right now. And yes, I'm referring to 1v1s. biggrin.gif

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# 5DJ_Premier Jul 15 2020, 13:37 PM
I often pick the random option to get a random race, crazyyyy

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# 6DucKô Jul 15 2020, 17:36 PM
Revealed random sucks.

They say it adds diversity with builds... i'll agree with that. What it also does is create generic power picks. Find me a competitive game where someone starts something other than WC/RC.

Also takes away the thrill of the game, as it now enables you to anticipate what you're opponents are gonna do.

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# 7trucky Jul 15 2020, 18:10 PM
QUOTE(DucKô @ Jul 15 2020, 18:36 PM) *

They say it adds diversity with builds... i'll agree with that.

i disagree and think this is a huge misconception. i think u can start anything with unrevealed and u have fewer choices with revealed because u have a lot more knowledge into what is gonna be an optimal build from the start of the game. there has been a lot of balance around revealed so it would not appear good for 1vs1 to change it back right now and there would need to be some other changes to accompany it.

QUOTE(DucKô @ Jul 15 2020, 18:36 PM) *

Revealed random sucks.

What it also does is create generic power picks. Find me a competitive game where someone starts something other than WC/RC.

Also takes away the thrill of the game, as it now enables you to anticipate what you're opponents are gonna do.

i agree. i also have pointed out in many threads that rc/wc is too powerful and how to also buff other 5pps but the dev team think that i am not a well liked or respected member of the community and they think they are very popular and knowledgeable about the game because they masturbate all day in 2.02 balance thread about "the optimal way to play" when this is obviously the wrong mindset when u are balancing. It would be better to have cheaper PBs, cheaper+weaker heroes, and more softcountering, but we are instead building pikemen to sit in 1 place and use porcupine formation to win games. i am banned from 2.02 balance thread because they fear my opinions but it doesn't matter because the actual balance thread is in a locked forum anyway where everybody is tossing each other off and cumming in a tsunami of fertilizing bukake all over Treebeard so he continually grows in power...

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# 8Andybear Jul 15 2020, 21:08 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jul 15 2020, 14:10 PM) *

i disagree and think this is a huge misconception. i think u can start anything with unrevealed and u have fewer choices with revealed because u have a lot more knowledge into what is gonna be an optimal build from the start of the game.


You're describing the difference between build order roulette and build order poker. If you prefer roulette and the dumb luck that goes along with it then that's a preference.

UR had the dumb luck angle if you vibed but most players who were playing to win played with fewer builds that left them open to react.

Rr pretty dramatically raises the skill floor since you can have good mechanics as a player but just sorta lose due to ignorance. It also raises the ceiling because theres so many small interactions early that have massive impact on the course of a game that tended to be streamlined unless y were dwarf back in the day

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# 9Elrohir Jul 20 2020, 18:19 PM
QUOTE(Andybear @ Jul 13 2020, 00:16 AM) *

lmao
In short it was changed in order to facilitate a more thorough understanding of the game's balance since having unrevealed random means that early game build orders stayed narrow since u had to be prepared for everything/stay safe.

Now you can anticipate more which has raised the skill floor considerably which kinda hurts coming back. As far as dwarves suffering from it, well, that doesn't seem to be case, in fact the faction that has probably suffered the most has been Mordor but thats a different discussion.


I understand that reasoning. However I do not find it enjoyable at all. (and no, it obviously has nothing to do with coming back and the skill floor being raised). Random is a strict disadvantage now. Why should you ever pick something else than your Tier 1? Your possible surprise element is gone and I believe that it truly disincentivizes playing anything other than your best faction. I have not been back nearly long enough to say, but from a purely theoretical standpoint (in my mind) it makes for less diversity (with all the one tricks).

The small, tiny advantage random gave is gone. I found the old random fun because:

1) You could maybe force your opponent to spy in order to get info, thus delaying him being able to get a boost in the first fight.
2) You could be lucky and surprise your opponent with fx a cavalry start on Elves (which you still technically could do but back then Elves pretty much was the only faction that could do that, so it really was a surprise back then)

As for Dwarves being strong. I probably should clarify. It had nothing to do with their power level. I meant their surprise element. I should think that everyone nowadays seeing Dwarves from random knows to look out for, and scout after, a forward mine.

I miss that feeling of uncertainty in the beginning of a game.

I know I could just find most answers in other topics but I'd rather engage in a discussion myself smile.gif

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# 10brabox Jul 20 2020, 19:03 PM
QUOTE(Elrohir @ Jul 20 2020, 19:19 PM) *
Random is a strict disadvantage now. Why should you ever pick something else than your Tier 1?

Random is indeed not very meaningful because you can also just pick a random faction. It's just kinda nice you can let fate decide and not do it yourself.

But if you think about it: picking random isn't a skill, mastering all factions is. And that skill is still a really big advantage when you're up vs a faction picker because you can choose whichever faction you think is best vs theirs. On top of that, there's the advantage of not being predictable. You can even shorten the time your opponent has to prepare by picking random instead of counter picking.

To answer your question: if you always pick your best faction then you become predictable. And you never learn other factions, which ultimately is still what you'll want to do. Because in RotWK, factions aren't radically different and being able to play multiple seems pretty much unavoidable if you want to play at a high level.

QUOTE(Elrohir @ Jul 20 2020, 19:19 PM) *
The small, tiny advantage random gave is gone.

Actually it wasn't a small, tiny advantage at all. It completely dictated the metagame, forcing everyone to play random all the time. It wasn't just a common courtesy. People picked random because it was clearly the best.

Because of UR, people were never able to practice MUs because e.g. Dwarves vs Mordor (both picked) is completely different than Dwarves vs Mordor (both from UR).

Side note about that particular MU: if you scouted as Mordor (there's no reason you wouldn't because the opponent didn't spy so you couldn't know it was Dwarves), then tell me why it wouldn't just be game over? It's basically the same as spying on Dwarves using Eye now.

UR is also responsible for hiding painful early game weaknesses such as early game Mordor. And before you say: well then what's the problem if UR hides/fixes that problem -- the problem is you could also pick Mordor. And one of 2.02's fundamental objective is balance for all gameplay elements, including faction picking. Sticking to UR would've basically made the game impossible to balance because it results in a meta of 14 factions who just do the same 7 BOs basically all the time since it's faction vs random.


QUOTE(Elrohir @ Jul 20 2020, 19:19 PM) *
I found the old random fun because:

1) You could maybe force your opponent to spy in order to get info, thus delaying him being able to get a boost in the first fight.

While I agree that the mechanic of spying to reveal the opponent's faction is gone now, it wasn't all smiles and clouds and daisies. Ultimately it was a guess because how do you "force" someone to spy? What if you're Men/Dwarf/Ang and the opponent spies you. Did you force that?



QUOTE(Elrohir @ Jul 20 2020, 19:19 PM) *
2) You could be lucky and surprise your opponent with fx a cavalry start on Elves (which you still technically could do but back then Elves pretty much was the only faction that could do that, so it really was a surprise back then)

I'm the last person to deny that UR had gameplay mechanics that are simply gone now, such as reacting to new information while still executing your BO. But I'm not sure why you pick this one? Was it a good thing that you could gamble and win by pure luck? Cause if you were onhost elf and the opponent didn't prepare for a cav start you could beat a significantly better player just because you went for high risk high reward.


Anyway, I think UR is a part of this game whether we like it or not. But I view it more like 4k stone, FFA or 4v4. If people find it fun, they should play UR, it really isn't that hard. But the standard rules should remain RR because it's simple all round the most fair, logical and has the best chance of resulting in a balanced game.

This post has been edited by brabox: Jul 20 2020, 19:06 PM

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# 11trucky Jul 20 2020, 21:13 PM
Elrohir. there is no point arguing with a revealed random supremacists. you will end up offending their world view. because it is blindingly obvious that unrevealed random is;
a) more fun
b) more variety
c) more skill-based

but the only way the build order noobs can win a game of rotwk is when they can play in an environment where everyone must learn what to do in a specific matchup. only then can their time spent learning builds be rewarded with wins. as soon as they are out of their comfort zone they crumble. and it doesn't matter that more people want unrevealed random, because the build order noobs control patch development, so you have to play their game. and they will out-masturbate you in a discussion about UR vs RR because despite your arguments being cleaner, they will harp on for longer, because they are more neurotic than you, so you can't even argue your point unless you want to be locked into a 30 month long discussion about it where your only escape is to back the fuck down and suck on their e-peen.

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# 12Andybear Jul 21 2020, 00:02 AM
DEBATE SOON GET HYPE BRING THE EMOTES BOYS

WAITING FOR TRUCKY TO FINISH FROZEN 2

TUNE INTO BROWNBEAR_55 FOR THE BOYZPOD WITH SOME HOT BOY| ON BOY| ACTION

QUOTE(Elrohir @ Jul 20 2020, 14:19 PM) *

I understand that reasoning. However I do not find it enjoyable at all. (and no, it obviously has nothing to do with coming back and the skill floor being raised). Random is a strict disadvantage now. Why should you ever pick something else than your Tier 1? Your possible surprise element is gone and I believe that it truly disincentivizes playing anything other than your best faction. I have not been back nearly long enough to say, but from a purely theoretical standpoint (in my mind) it makes for less diversity (with all the one tricks).

The small, tiny advantage random gave is gone. I found the old random fun because:

1) You could maybe force your opponent to spy in order to get info, thus delaying him being able to get a boost in the first fight.
2) You could be lucky and surprise your opponent with fx a cavalry start on Elves (which you still technically could do but back then Elves pretty much was the only faction that could do that, so it really was a surprise back then)

As for Dwarves being strong. I probably should clarify. It had nothing to do with their power level. I meant their surprise element. I should think that everyone nowadays seeing Dwarves from random knows to look out for, and scout after, a forward mine.

I miss that feeling of uncertainty in the beginning of a game.

I know I could just find most answers in other topics but I'd rather engage in a discussion myself smile.gif


You're not wrong but you're not perfectly correct either. As Brabox pointed out there's still incentive to master every faction since the pursuit of self improvement always has merit+advantage in matches that "matter".

I stand by the skill floor being higher comment, but if you're argument is "Unrevealed Random was more fun" then I can't argue preference.

I would say I prefer to play with unrevealed random but I'm pleased with RR as it is from a spectator's perspective. Narrower opening builds where both players have to play really reactive is a fun play pattern that I miss.

Saying "you could get randomly lucky with cav start" is pretty antithetical to "skill" though.

This post has been edited by Andybear: Jul 21 2020, 00:11 AM

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# 13trucky Jul 21 2020, 08:14 AM
Bring it on! Bring it on! Cant reveal random anymoreeee!

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# 14brabox Jul 21 2020, 08:32 AM
QUOTE(trucky @ Jul 20 2020, 22:13 PM) *

Elrohir. there is no point arguing with a revealed random supremacists. you will end up offending their world view. because it is blindingly obvious that unrevealed random is;
a) more fun
b) more variety
c) more skill-based

There is no point arguing with an unrevealed random supremacists. you will end up offending their world view. because it is blindingly obvious that revealed random is;
a) more fun
b) more variety
c) more skill-based

See how this adds nothing? All you do is say: "I prefer UR" but packaged in 3 sentences that don't contain an argument but serve only to create an "us vs them" narrative.

Also who's the real supremacist here? You seem to be the most belligerent person in the entire topic.

I wasn't even in staff when this decision was made, and I was always kinda neutral towards the idea until the patch released after which I became more in favor. Sounds like an RR supremacist to you?

QUOTE(trucky @ Jul 20 2020, 22:13 PM) *
and they will out-masturbate you in a discussion about UR vs RR because despite your arguments being cleaner

What you mean to say is you can't clearly express your opinion and resort to name calling and using naughty boy words instead. It's painfully obvious to anyone reading your posts #7 and #11.

It's really cool of course that you know all the potty mouth words, but it's kind of a cheap way to differentiate yourself because half of the repliers in this topic are staff members who have to uphold certain standards and will not resort to that type of language.

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# 15trucky Jul 21 2020, 09:40 AM
well done for proving to everyone that you can't read thumb.gif

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# 16Seebs Jul 21 2020, 11:38 AM
Let it go is not in Frozen 2, weirdo.

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# 17Brownbear55 Jul 21 2020, 11:54 AM
QUOTE(Seebs @ Jul 21 2020, 12:38 PM) *

Let it go is not in Frozen 2, weirdo.


Alright MattysMirks cool2.gif

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# 18DucKô Jul 21 2020, 19:18 PM
No point suggesting anything to the 02 devs, some things never change.

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# 19Excelsior Jul 22 2020, 00:41 AM
QUOTE(DucK™ @ Jul 21 2020, 19:18 PM) *
No point suggesting anything to the 02 devs, some things never change.

I don't think this is a fair statement. A lot of if not most of the work put into the 2.02 patches originates from suggestions made by the community. On the other hand though, we have an obligation to do what's best for the patch, which means changes aren't made willy-nilly. If we were to simply give into every discussion where someone threw their hands in the air because their suggestion was counterargued, we'd have an awfully messy patch.

It's easy to think that you can simply implement every little suggestion made by person x, y or z without considering the finer details. The reality is though, every little change has an impact, and we have the responsibility to consider all the changes we make objectively. Properly balanced and fully working game > superfluous stuff that seems "fun". Every successful business or project is founded on a basic set of principles. We're no different. If we abandon our principles, how would we maintain order in the developmental process? What limits do we then set?

Anyway, I don't think there's a need for me to echo what's already been discussed in this thread and all others opened before regarding this UR vs RR. All I'm saying is, you guys need to stop looking at staff as the bad guys. I've remained neutral in most arguments like these, but it's really becoming quite distasteful. I'm not being paid to devote hours and hours on this game and community and yet I do so anyway. Now that doesn't mean I'm the Messiah and everything I say sticks, but I would appreciate if people could see the bigger picture. We're not a bunch of evil overlords imposing our personal preferences above those of the community. Ultimately, if we didn't care about the integrity and growth of this project we wouldn't be having these arguments, and the RotWK community would still be stuck on v3.6.1 with 0 people managing this section + nobody fostering growth. So in essence, you'd have returned to a dead game.

P.S. No disrespect to you or anyone else, this is just my humble remark.

This post has been edited by Excelsior: Jul 22 2020, 01:00 AM

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# 20DucKô Jul 22 2020, 10:02 AM
Fair enough

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