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Dawn of War 3

Relic never had any plan to keep DoW3 going.

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# 1Bigamo Feb 11 2018, 12:54 PM
I got banned from the oficial forums (and not even notified, simply put my posts in invisible and let me keep posting as an idiot) and from Steam discution for this post, so i really think i got things mostly right.

Relic never intended to do anything with dow3, they got AoE4 contract before ending DoW3 development and moved most of the manpower to it. (not a coincidence AoE4 was announced SO CLOSE after dawn of war 3 release, and by Micro$oft, thats a common technique of intimidation)

Or no one else here saw how bad the menus of dow3 worked?

The lack of observer mode?

Who would release a game without observer mode in 2017 if had ANY commitment to keep doing the game?

If Relic have 2 teams and both are busy, WHO WOULD MAKE DOW3 EXPANSION? Another studio?

And remember that already in the FIRST patch (that put anihilation in the game but didn't made it the automatch mode) Kat already mentioned that they borrowed people from other projects to do so.

The Dawn of war team was already disbanded and reassigned before game release, and that explains why Relic NEVER DID ANYTHING to try to help dawn of war 3.

Cause they never intended to.

Here the original post that got me banned from everything after 14 years of dedication to Relic games <3

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So i decided to make a new Topic, just to talk about money. And why Dawn of war 3 wasn't expected to flourish. All info here is open and acessible.

Acording to wikipedia the full list of people working on the game was: (no naming and shaming, just putting the total amount of people for calculations)

Director(s): Philippe Boulle
Producer(s): Lee McKinnon Pederson
Designer(s): Brent Disbrow, Brock Robin, Byron Chow, Shaun Easterday, Damon Gauthier, Carolina Mastretta
Programmer(s) Remy Saville, Anthony Bergelt, Ian Thomson, Kris Lang
Artist(s) Matthew Kuzminski, Nick Unden, Yvi Mendoza, Tristan Brett, Robert Westwood, Michael Mussellam
Writer(s): Kyle Berndt, Adam Bullied
Composer(s):Paul Leonard-Morgan[1]

Thats the whole team that made Dawn of war3 , for some reason the sound engineer is missing, but let's ignore it and have a calculation with 20 people ganing 10k dolars a month. I doubt the median would be around 10k dolars month, probably half of it. But here we are including all relic costs together, like rent and bills and the cost of the computers used to make the game.

20 x 10k = 200k so basicly 200k dollars for each month of development.

200k a month of work. Lets say this whole team worked a whole year doing dawn of war 3 (what i seriously doubt, the game was released even without basic quality of life stuff)

12 x 200k
= two million and four hundred dollars.

Over that we had the voice over costs (on a SINGLE language this time) that we will put at 100k dollars over estipulating, i worked as sound engineer most of my life and i know that those numbers were not reached, but let's pretend 100k dolars in voice overs.

total project cost = 2500.000,00 Dollars.

game made on day one alone:

250k X 60$ = 15 million dollars.

let's cut steam 10% to 13,5 million dollars. and suppose that Sega spent 2 million dollars on publicity (what i doubt, youtube ads are not really THAT expensive).

11,5, paying the 2 and a half million dollars of developtment and giving 9 million dollars of profit on DAY ONE ALONE. i am ignoring licensing, but i doubt it really ate a great part of those 9 million dollars.

That being said, the devolopers trying to be open with us gave us to know that since the very first patch (that put that ressemblance of a ladder in the game) they were already borrowing people from other projects.

That means that since the game release you had already NO TEAM dedicated to the game.

For comparation i read a lot about game development and i read more than once that the evil EA had a policy when releasing an RTS (don't know for sure about other genres) to let the WHOLE TEAM available for 2 months/patchs, to do anything that the game needed. after that the team moved on and the game entered maintenance mode. In EA case it was even worse as they didn't even used to roll any balance patch after that.

So, what else do we know?

We know that Relic lost the homeworld property and all property Relic actually have are: Company of Heroes, Dawn of war, Space Marine, and probably the outfit (not sure but i think impossible creatures is property of microsoft? anyway it is as irrelevant as the outfit).

We know that after THQ going under, Games Workshop changed their licensing format for Warhammer 40k to the classic one. Licensing pretty to pretty much anyone.

Why it is an old format of licensing? Cause its a BAD one. For instance, MANY people here, myself included, had their first 40k experience with dawn of war 1. Dawn of war 1 was a GREAT game, and dawn of war 2 was a niceish game, but let's be honest here, why SEGA as a big publisher would invest huge ressources to make a game that will promote products of other people?

This format of licensing is just usefull for people that want to milk the IP. And thats EXACTLY what Relic did.

The game cut costs everywere to maximize profit and milk Dawn of War and 40k IPs, just a single language with VOs, not even free camera to use less assets and so on. Meanwhile Relic got the agreement to develop AoE 4 before finishing DoW3 and moved the team ASAP, actually abandoning DoW3 to sell some copies by its own name.

When 40k was a THQ license Relic did a lot more work to save dow2, including a severe redesign of many systems in the "There is only war" update. As they did to save CoH2 after the first bad reception. But there is no point in trying to save dow3 as they already had milked it.

From now on all you can expect is crap 40k games with the license going to anyone as a form to promote their studios and not the franchise. And i Blame GW the most, if i was not a gamer but an executive at SEGA or Relic, probably i would think the same.

Probably Relic at first wanted to make a great run with dawn of war 3, but only for lack of options, as soon as a better option landed on them (AoE4) they just let dow3 die.

Who do you guys think would work on any DoW3 fix or expansion, the guys working on CoH3 (or other for hire work) or the guys working on AoE4? Since day one of this Dawn of war 3 run there was no objective from Relic part to improve the game, so they just let it die.

R.I.P Dawn of War and R.I.P Relic, both are dead.

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# 2Bigamo Feb 12 2018, 00:11 AM
this topic was put in invisible too?

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# 3Dullahan Feb 12 2018, 00:22 AM
No, not invisible. The forums here just aren't active.

Relic can fuck off.

I'm starting work on a balance mod to keep the game going and make significant gameplay changes. I don't expect it to be wildly successful but maybe it will pick up some traction among the people still interested in the series.

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# 4Carnevour Feb 12 2018, 08:04 AM
QUOTE(Dullahan @ Feb 12 2018, 00:22 AM) *

No, not invisible. The forums here just aren't active.

Relic can fuck off.

I'm starting work on a balance mod to keep the game going and make significant gameplay changes. I don't expect it to be wildly successful but maybe it will pick up some traction among the people still interested in the series.


I would actually would like to see that, but im not sure you can do much since Relic even with ceasing DoW3 support said they wont expand the moding tools for the community which is another slap in the face for now ex-fans of their company. The game needed a re-work from up to bottom or a conversion into a wc3-esque game which would have been better.

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# 5Dullahan Feb 12 2018, 16:25 PM
QUOTE(Carnevour @ Feb 12 2018, 01:04 AM) *

I would actually would like to see that, but im not sure you can do much since Relic even with ceasing DoW3 support said they wont expand the moding tools for the community which is another slap in the face for now ex-fans of their company. The game needed a re-work from up to bottom or a conversion into a wc3-esque game which would have been better.


They said that while there are no specific plans, they might do something. I doubt we'll ever see total conversions but perhaps they'll atleast fix a few of the more pressing issues.


The most annoying thing right now is that all of Relic's changes from the october patch are "invisible" to the mod tools in addition to the new elite units. Anything I change still overwrites them but I could accidentally buff/nerf stuff if I'm not carefully cross-referencing the patch notes with stuff.

Still, I managed to get a lot done last night. Hopefully by the end of today I'll have finished my first balance pass through the game.

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# 6Bigamo Feb 12 2018, 23:12 PM
the game don't really need a balance mod, just play anihilation without doctrines and tada, the game is balanced and way more fun with a TOTAL dow 1.5 feel that is what the community wanted, i have been saying over and over again and who actually played this way saw it.

Simply changing the game mode also balance the game totally.

Suddenly really powerful stuff like power sword ASMs are not an issue anymore and some pretty useless units, like vypers, become very good. Hit and run with vypers are very good in anihilation (not op) while almost useless in Power Core.

I go as far as saying that in power Core without doctrines the ONLY UNIT that needs some fixing is wazzmakka with its elite killer skill and maybe a small nerf to fire prisms. But the game works 100% more DoW, more balanced and more fun.

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# 7Dullahan Feb 12 2018, 23:23 PM
First release of my mod is on the workshop now.

https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/...sion-0-1#latest

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# 8Bigamo Feb 12 2018, 23:50 PM
nice, if i still had DoW3 instaled i would try it... But 40 power to devastators is prohibitive.

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# 9Dullahan Feb 13 2018, 00:22 AM
QUOTE(Bigamo @ Feb 12 2018, 16:50 PM) *

nice, if i still had DoW3 instaled i would try it... But 40 power to devastators is prohibitive.


Perhaps, I'm looking to ultimately transition weapons teams more towards a DoW2 style of being less spammy but stronger. They're a little more expensive than dark reapers or lootas but they have far and away the best damage output for now. (And have the best doctrines, so I'm trying to keep those in mind too.)

In a lot of my recent casts I saw a lot of people as SM not spending power on anything except req gens for the first 10-15 minutes and then going T2, so I want to push people towards spending power on things like unit upgrades, tac weapons and devastators etc.

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# 10Carnevour Feb 13 2018, 08:16 AM
One thing i found about DoW3 is that Relic did absolutely bad map design, like genuinely idiotic in my opinion. I think why gork mire was such a go to map was in fact due to it having a natural resource point that was relatively safe to build on and protect. I think if they made maps a bit more open and somewhat placed the resource nodes smartly you would actually have a more smoother transitions between phases and the overall flow of the game itself.

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# 11Dullahan Feb 13 2018, 21:09 PM
QUOTE(Carnevour @ Feb 13 2018, 01:16 AM) *

One thing i found about DoW3 is that Relic did absolutely bad map design, like genuinely idiotic in my opinion. I think why gork mire was such a go to map was in fact due to it having a natural resource point that was relatively safe to build on and protect. I think if they made maps a bit more open and somewhat placed the resource nodes smartly you would actually have a more smoother transitions between phases and the overall flow of the game itself.


I think the problem comes back to capture points not giving resources for just capturing them.

In their previous games you could start collecting additional resources in the ~20 seconds it took to decap and then capture a point. In DoW3 you have to spend an entire minute building generators that get blown up by a single Tac squad in like 10 seconds.

Worse is listening post are some of the most durable things in the game, especially in phase IV. (In fact, they may be the most durable thing in the game.) It leads to the "snowball" scenario where once you've secured resources it is very difficult for your opponent to take them back.

The entire process for recapturing a resource point secured by your opponent is kill a LP with 3-5K hp, kill the generators, decap the point, capture the point, build generators and a LP and then finally start getting money from the whole affair.

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# 12Spirit. Feb 14 2018, 06:48 AM
Cool thing i appreciate your efford dullahan. I would like if relic would be as passionated like you and many other fow fans like us.

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# 13dukejason Feb 15 2018, 17:36 PM
I think community patching has a chance to be incorporated.

This post has been edited by dukejason: Feb 16 2018, 06:53 AM

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# 14Dullahan Feb 21 2018, 16:50 PM
QUOTE(dukejason @ Feb 15 2018, 10:36 AM) *

I think community patching has a chance to be incorporated.


That would be awesome indeed.

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# 15Cerus Jun 25 2018, 15:03 PM
QUOTE(Dullahan @ Feb 12 2018, 23:23 PM) *

First release of my mod is on the workshop now.

https://community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/...sion-0-1#latest



Might tempt me to reinstall the game, will see...

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