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Rise of the Witch King

Serious unbalenced Dwarven battlewagon

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# 1BJ910322 Aug 3 2020, 22:06 PM
Hi, I am one of fans who enjoys LOTRWK a lot, I was very pleased that the new 8.4.0 version has been released, it was nice balancing patch which appears to be moderating almost every single problems that I experienced previous time, but there's still one problem that hasn't solved yet, it is the DWARVEN BATTLEWAGON, on the 8.3.0 version of LOTWK I realized that it has a serious problem, such as the high velocity that seems no matchable with any other units, second, the arrow battlewagon has high dps which also seems to be compromise with the high speed, result in seemingly invincible amongst of all, I had played with my friend who sorely use battleawgons, and it's impossible to take it down.
I saw this 8.4.0 patch contains nerf of battlewagon performance, I realized the dev has lowered its dps considerably, meanwhile the speed of it hasn't changed at all, even though it has low dps but the uncatchable speed of wagon makes it a troblesome units, since almost every faction except Elf has low speed, I had known that Dragos or Fellbeast's speed still are not able to catch it up...;;
The patch was nice, balancing was beautifully done, thankful for those who put their time to change it for the finest game performance, but i would like you to know battlewagon is still VERY OP! I hope that the dev would consider my opinion and let us all have more joyful gaming experience, thanks

REGARDS

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# 2trucky Aug 4 2020, 09:09 AM
it is balanced for a tier-1 cavalry unit to be able to trample archers and swords while shooting pikes down while moving and having a ranged anti-clump ability and being able to out-run most other cavalry and being able to shoot down all other cavalry while moving and being the only cavalry unit in the game that can run backwards when it gets into trouble and take close to zero damage from heroes and monsters like attack trolls so i think the devs decided to make them do 25% less damage to pikes now AND they switched the Axe Thrower and Hearth upgrade slots so my advice to you is git gud and don't complain about anything unless you want to get banned.

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Game: Rise of the Witchking 2.01


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# 3TheRingisHot Aug 4 2020, 22:23 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Aug 4 2020, 09:09 AM) *

being able to out-run most other cavalry


Wut? I think you are exaggerating a bit.

Admittedly though, BWs are probabaly one of the more controversial units.
Imo they were on a good way when the notorious moondancing feature was removed and they could no longer reverse instantaneously at will a few patches ago.

Iirc without any complementary buff, BWs became quickly unpopular and everything was reverted, which seemed a little premature in my book.

Anyway, BWs could probably use some touch up.

Posts: 2,937

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 4Ab3r` Aug 5 2020, 06:59 AM
QUOTE(BJ910322 @ Aug 3 2020, 23:06 PM) *

Hi, I am one of fans who enjoys LOTRWK a lot, I was very pleased that the new 8.4.0 version has been released, it was nice balancing patch which appears to be moderating almost every single problems that I experienced previous time, but there's still one problem that hasn't solved yet, it is the DWARVEN BATTLEWAGON, on the 8.3.0 version of LOTWK I realized that it has a serious problem, such as the high velocity that seems no matchable with any other units, second, the arrow battlewagon has high dps which also seems to be compromise with the high speed, result in seemingly invincible amongst of all, I had played with my friend who sorely use battleawgons, and it's impossible to take it down.
I saw this 8.4.0 patch contains nerf of battlewagon performance, I realized the dev has lowered its dps considerably, meanwhile the speed of it hasn't changed at all, even though it has low dps but the uncatchable speed of wagon makes it a troblesome units, since almost every faction except Elf has low speed, I had known that Dragos or Fellbeast's speed still are not able to catch it up...;;
The patch was nice, balancing was beautifully done, thankful for those who put their time to change it for the finest game performance, but i would like you to know battlewagon is still VERY OP! I hope that the dev would consider my opinion and let us all have more joyful gaming experience, thanks

REGARDS


Thereís so much to deconstruct from this post.

Yes BW with MoD were nerfed, specially against pikes. But a nerf does not mean we obliterate a unit into the ground meaning it wonít be useful. Ultimately this is still a unit that costs 1000 so it will be a strong unit.

The trick to dealing with players who spam BW is not to chase them around, BW arenít effective harassing units for their cost so just send 1-2 battalions of pikes to chase the BW while you press. Also BW arenít the fastest unit in the game which you seem to claim, all the flying units will catch them, as will other cavalry units.

If youíre able to post the replay Iím sure we can give you more constructive feedback on how to deal with them.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 5DucKô Aug 5 2020, 18:36 PM
Literally the only problem with BW is the fact that they shoot while moving. The changes you have done to them this patch wasn't needes. Just remove the ability to perma kite.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 6Ab3r` Aug 7 2020, 08:53 AM
The changes done werenít needed? I think most of the good players in the community agreed that they killed pikes too fast.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 7brabox Aug 7 2020, 09:30 AM
BW+MoD are a weird unit that was also completely ignored for 90% of 2.02's history. Many less apparent attributes such as their great maneuverability, single unit advantage (no firepower decrease when on low health, easier micro compared to hordes), and Oil Barrel logical fire abuse are only now surfacing.

Dwarves were always considered to be very unforgiving to play and just recently that sentiment kinda changed. So it's logical that questions surrounding the (too) strong aspects of Dwarves are suddenly becoming a point of contention. And as always we'll have to think about how to best deal with changes in the metagame and how to balance accordingly.

What definitely doesn't make sense is claiming "X is how it shoud've been fixed" or "Y wasn't necessary".

You don't know that.

It's not like this is a thing anyone has experience with, among other reasons simply because BW+MoD were only rarely used in the past. Surely if you remove the continuous firing from BW+MoD you're gonna radically change how good they are? How will you ensure they're still viable especially considering them being unused for most of 2.02's history? Have you considered how their price and or CP cost should be modified? Have you considered how this changes MUs like Dwarves vs Elves/Goblins? Did you take into account how weak BWs are vs other cav if they don't have MoD? Isn't it also logical that Dwarves who have the least maneuverable units in the game have one unit that kinda compensates for that?

I could go on but I think my neurotic point has been made.

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# 8sleeper Aug 7 2020, 15:12 PM
wow, old lads are bk!

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 9Andybear Aug 7 2020, 17:22 PM
Come play Sleep

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# 10Elrohir Aug 7 2020, 20:11 PM
QUOTE(brabox @ Aug 7 2020, 09:30 AM) *

BW+MoD are a weird unit that was also completely ignored for 90% of 2.02's history.


Well that's just not true biggrin.gif I remember 2.02a (or b - so many years ago) biggrin.gif

and hey sleeper biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Elrohir: Aug 7 2020, 20:16 PM

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# 11brabox Aug 7 2020, 20:44 PM
They've been pretty unpopular for as far as I can remember.

But that aside, with their corrected exp requirement they level up to lvl2 much slower. That combined with the scalar works really well imo.

If there's any actual argument as to why MoD shouldn't be able to fire when moving then I'm all ears.

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# 12DucKô Aug 8 2020, 13:09 PM
Because they're the only unit in the game that can, and unique units have a way of being potentially imbalanced. I suggest trying it when 8.5 is being developed and see how it goes.BW is cav essentially, and what counters cav - pikes. No good if they can snipe pikes from afar.BW should be to compliment your army, not be the main unit.

Dwarves are already strong enough and I think you're overthinking what removing the ability to move while they shoot will do. You can still micro them around just as well, and still snipe from a distance..but moving and sniping is completely broken and has been since the MoD were buffed om the bw's in earlier patches.

Yes the cost is justified, but maybe adjust it a bit if the sniping is removed.

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# 13DucKô Aug 8 2020, 13:10 PM
QUOTE(sleeper @ Aug 7 2020, 15:12 PM) *

wow, old lads are bk!

Sleep come play with me <3

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# 14sleeper Aug 9 2020, 13:01 PM
QUOTE(DucKô @ Aug 8 2020, 14:10 PM) *

Sleep come play with me <3


Sure.

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# 15Excelsior Aug 9 2020, 14:23 PM
BW upgrades were originally designed to fire while moving so we're better off sticking to that design and tune their firepower as needed.

Currently, they deal poor damage to pikes which seems to prevent them from thinning out an army's protective pikes. So it's considerably harder to abuse.

Biggest issue is players fixate too much on trying to kill BWs with MoD, when they could instead ignore them and harass and apply pressure to the Dwarven player. And since Dwarves inherently require more micromanagement with the use of their mine network, it's a good way to throw your opponent's attention off the wagon (pun intended tongue.gif).

Not at all saying BWs can't do with tweaks in the upcoming patch, but I think design changes such as the inability to fire while moving is over-the-top.

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# 16Imperialist Aug 10 2020, 09:11 AM
bro, try to play vs isen without bw, u will die vs wargpacks very fast

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