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The Issue with AutoMatch

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# 1XOUTH Feb 19 2021, 21:15 PM
We all want the beloved AM back, but it seems there's no place where opinions, arguments and questions that could lead to a solution are collected in one thread.

I want you, the community - no matter if lesser or higher skilled - to post your opinion, ideas and more here.

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# 2evirios331 Feb 19 2021, 21:44 PM
AM will be nice to see again, its will remove 1v1 dodges and regain interest in the game for old and new players. Tired to see same ppl in 1v1 matchmaking. Also AM will help Unity and Laimis find match muсh easier, i really care about it

This post has been edited by evirios331: Feb 19 2021, 21:57 PM

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# 3Constable Chris Feb 19 2021, 21:50 PM
Well for starters, I think everyone is on the same page regarding AM. Everyone agrees that AM is likely the only saving grace for this game, and our only chance of sparking up whatever remains of the competitive scene (assuming it's still here...).

I, personally, am not qualified to fix AM, as it requires a certain skill set which I do not yet possess. However, I am fairly certain that it shouldn't be too hard to find someone inside or outside the community who would be willing to do it.

Another thing that in my opinion may be an issue, is Revora's lack of willingness to release the source code to people who can contribute, be it AM or other improvements.

The fact that the source code of the Launcher/Server is not open source is sinful, because having the source code as open source would allow an untold amount of qualified people, to make contributions and regular improvements/fixes to the server that we DESPERATELY need, that includes AM and many other things.

I am not trying to attack Revora just to be clear on that. We should be grateful that they've kept up their services for so long and are still doing so, especially considering the limitations and problems they face with running this server.

That, however, does not mean we don't need a change. On the contrary, we need a LOT of changes to happen and I think it's time for them to happen after a 7 year period. The last CNC Online update was released years ago and we haven't had any noteworthy improvements or fixes since then.

Those are my 2 cents, and I can only hope that we finally start seeing some remarkable changes.

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# 4Papa_Coming Feb 19 2021, 23:32 PM
nvm

This post has been edited by Papa_Coming: Feb 20 2021, 08:44 AM

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# 5omni.Taz360 Feb 20 2021, 00:23 AM
if we can find someone to work on it that would really be great, on that note before we can get AM back like chris said, it may not be a bad idea to invest in a new server to make the game more stable. I wouldn't hesitate to donate money as long as I know work is getting done.

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# 6Warprism Feb 20 2021, 06:35 AM
The fact that the community couldnt even put 1500$ for Xenon who generuously proposed his services to fix this server (after 6 months, we reach 1000) AND Phil not being available to help him out make this a lost cause.
What we do now is just random bla bla with no result for sure. But well, this is a forum where people can still dream and/or waste time smile.gif

See this

This post has been edited by Warprism: Feb 20 2021, 06:47 AM

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# 7Dutcharmy Feb 20 2021, 10:58 AM
It would be cool if the AM came back, I wasn't even here when the AM was still working but it sounds that so many *problems* could be solved. As in I mostly see the same people in the 1v1, but then agian the majority of RA3 plays Co-op. That's legit 50% of the people online. We can also do what other already have stated that we could hire someone from the outside. But that goes beyond my brian.

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# 8Leikeze Feb 20 2021, 12:01 PM
QUOTE(Warprism @ Feb 20 2021, 01:35 AM) *

The fact that the community couldnt even put 1500$ for Xenon who generuously proposed his services to fix this server (after 6 months, we reach 1000) AND Phil not being available to help him out make this a lost cause.
What we do now is just random bla bla with no result for sure. But well, this is a forum where people can still dream and/or waste time smile.gif

See this

I still get an ice-pick headache when my mind feels like popping that memory into my head. 0wn3d.gif

There's no platform I'd rather use than Revora's server for ZH, or RA3 on the occasion that I play it because I've been waiting for AM since it launched.

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# 9Constable Chris Feb 20 2021, 12:22 PM
Fixing this server is a little beyond my field of knowledge but I am willing to do it voluntarily (without any donations). I have made some inquiries regarding the resources that are needed to actually work on the server.

According to Xezon(in the post linked by Warprism), the whole thing is not as straightforward as he was expecting it to be, and I am fully aware of that. This, however, does not make it impossible. I will willingly invest time to learn everything needed to make the necessary adjustment, but this will take some time.

Because honestly, it's been 7 years of server restarts, rehost bugs, random game crashes, unstable performance and people randomly getting kicked out.

I understand that Revora is doing the best of it's ability to manage all of this, but my question is:
How long are they planning on keeping that up? For another year? 7 years? 10?

This has been on the cnc-onine.net for ages:
IPB Image

And whenever we ask about it, we get a very ambiguous answer with a very clear message.

I'm sorry for being so forthcoming, but someone had to say all of this because it seems our messages are not coming through to the concerned parties.




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# 10cwedvin Feb 20 2021, 13:48 PM
Personally i don't care about the AM but i will support you in whatever stuff you would need chris.

In the meantime we will keep restarting and keeping the server up for another 10-20 years aslong as you all are having fun and keep on enjoying our service smile.gif


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# 11xezon Feb 20 2021, 18:04 PM
I tried to get local server running on my machine and I had the setup quite far, but there are some dependencies that are not bundled and I have not managed to get them to work on Windows. It would be nice if the server worked out of the box without any sneaky setups.

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# 12Constable Chris Feb 20 2021, 20:15 PM
QUOTE(cwedvin @ Feb 20 2021, 13:48 PM) *

Personally i don't care about the AM but i will support you in whatever stuff you would need chris.

In the meantime we will keep restarting and keeping the server up for another 10-20 years aslong as you all are having fun and keep on enjoying our service smile.gif


Thank you Edvin smile.gif Just to clarify, my question was not about how long will the server will stay up, but how long will they keep dealing with the issues I mentioned, as oppose to finding someone who can iron them out.

@Xezon, there has to be a way to get this working on Windows. Even if we do have to find some sneaky loopholes, but surely it's not impossible?

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# 13xezon Feb 20 2021, 20:26 PM
It's not impossible.

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# 14zokker13 Feb 21 2021, 17:09 PM
QUOTE(Constable Chris @ Feb 19 2021, 22:50 PM) *

Another thing that in my opinion may be an issue, is Revora's lack of willingness to release the source code to people who can contribute, be it AM or other improvements.

The fact that the source code of the Launcher/Server is not open source is sinful, because having the source code as open source would allow an untold amount of qualified people, to make contributions and regular improvements/fixes to the server that we DESPERATELY need, that includes AM and many other things.


It's exactly the same thing for your maps btw.

Revora has invited people to work on their project before and continue to do so.

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# 15Constable Chris Feb 21 2021, 17:45 PM
QUOTE(zokker13 @ Feb 21 2021, 17:09 PM) *

It's exactly the same thing for your maps btw.


You want me to release the source code of a project that is constantly changing on a daily basis? We make changes to the patch every single day. Releasing the source code is irrelevant before the final version.

I never intended to make the patch open source and the code is certainly not written to be that way. I understand that Revora could also have their reasons for not making it open source, but all we ask for is a little transparency, and a more open line of communication, if they are not going to make it open source.

QUOTE(zokker13 @ Feb 21 2021, 17:09 PM) *

Revora has invited people to work on their project before and continue to do so.


Explains why the most recent update was years ago. If they continue to do so, then what is going on currently?

This post has been edited by Constable Chris: Feb 21 2021, 17:48 PM

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# 16xezon Feb 21 2021, 18:55 PM
QUOTE(Constable Chris @ Feb 21 2021, 19:45 PM) *

You want me to release the source code of a project that is constantly changing on a daily basis? We make changes to the patch every single day. Releasing the source code is irrelevant before the final version.

That is not a good argument against open source.

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# 17Constable Chris Feb 21 2021, 18:58 PM
Be that as it may. The patch was never designed to be open source anyways. Otherwise we would have followed a different approach.

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# 18Sheriff AA Mar 2 2021, 20:00 PM
Can't believe I missed this thread until now. Better late than never I suppose.

As one of the few players still lurking around here from the old days of this game, I can say with full confidence that AM is very important when it comes to maintaining a competitive playerbase. As someone who enjoys grinding out as many games as possible whenever I do come online, AM was certainly a great way to easily get some games going and the ladder was extremely fun to play back when it was competitive. Grinding out games is also the best way to improve your skills, and that is frankly a lot harder to do these days without AM.

The harsh reality is - the current ladder is an absolute joke, mostly filled with dodgers who refuse to play against good players (I won't name names for the sake of not wanting to turn this into a flame war, but these players know who they are). The state of being able to find competitive 1v1 games is just as pathetic unless you have a friend to spam some games with. When I stopped playing a couple years back, it got to the point where I had to create anonymous smurfs just to get games so certain players would actually play, and nobody likes having to go through all that trouble just to play some games, which is the biggest reason why I quit. AM would completely solve these issues and actually make the 1v1 ladder worth something again.

Tournaments and other events have been great and I continue to applaud RaGe for all that he's done to keep this community alive. I just think restoring AM would go a lot farther when it comes to helping these efforts. I've tried many times to explore possibilities to get AM back but never had any luck. I hope the fortunes are better this time smile.gif

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# 19zokker13 Mar 4 2021, 16:56 PM
QUOTE(Constable Chris @ Feb 21 2021, 18:45 PM) *

You want me to release the source code of a project that is constantly changing on a daily basis? We make changes to the patch every single day. Releasing the source code is irrelevant before the final version.

Yes, please. Why not. There are many other projects that are managed more transparent. The last release of your maps was when? Three years ago? You want to tell me you worked on the maps for the last 1000 days? biggrin.gif
Cmon.

QUOTE(Constable Chris @ Feb 21 2021, 18:45 PM) *

I never intended to make the patch open source and the code is certainly not written to be that way.

Don't be ashamed of the achievements you've made. Perhaps you motivate others to help you woth the project and then it grows on it's own even further.

QUOTE(Constable Chris @ Feb 21 2021, 18:45 PM) *

if they are not going to make it open source.

Why should they? I mean, the reasons could be arbritary as yours and you gain nothing out of it. The obvious reason against sharing is that they want to unite the playerbase. Having three different servers that divide the people is something they want to avoid (though, it's a poor mindset, really).
I also think that there is some sort of political decisions - but that's pure speculation on my part.

QUOTE(Constable Chris @ Feb 21 2021, 18:45 PM) *

Explains why the most recent update was years ago. If they continue to do so, then what is going on currently?

Like your maps? smile.gif
I mean, it's obvious, don't you think? They are not done. Perhaps nobody works there, now. Who knows.

Speaking from my own experience with the project, I tried to get involved like 5? years ago and had no clue about Python and I had a new job so I didn't care much tbh.
But the project was already in a slow-as-hell state, with the maintainer taking a very long time to respond, hard to get dependencies running with non-existing dependencies, too.
There was a readme, but that always failed my build at least.
Never got the access to the client (actually the only reason why I wanted to elaborate in the first place) so I never could test anything.

So yeah, there is a reason why the servers need to be reanimated sometimes. It's far from perfect. This kind of project would benefit from OpenSource if there is a strong and active maintainer. Without it, people will just grab the sourcecode and make their own server. I understand the decision to keep it under tight control, but I hate that decision.

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# 20Constable Chris Mar 4 2021, 20:21 PM
QUOTE

Yes, please. Why not. There are many other projects that are managed more transparent. The last release of your maps was when? Three years ago? You want to tell me you worked on the maps for the last 1000 days? biggrin.gif
Cmon.


I've been as transparent as I possibly can with the community. I posted frequent updates, opened polls and discussions about changes, and now we are doing open betas that anyone is free to join in order to test the upcoming version. It can't get more transparent than that. One can definitely argue that in the beginning, I was handling the whole thing poorly, since I have never managed any project before, nor was I following any professional standards.

Given that interest in the patch has overall downgraded, I decided to hold off on posting updates because it seemed that people were becoming less and less interactive with us. Honestly I don't blame them. Best I could do was post changelogs for upcoming versions and get feedback from those as oppose to posting individual updates for every single change.

We've always been reachable and open to suggestions, and we still are to this day.

QUOTE

Don't be ashamed of the achievements you've made. Perhaps you motivate others to help you woth the project and then it grows on it's own even further.


I am not ashamed of my achievements. Nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be. In fact, I am quite proud of what we achieved. The number of fixes and improvements that we made have surpassed any other community patch to cross this game. (I am not saying this out of arrogance, but simply stating a fact. All other community patches are dead.)

The primary reason that we do not wish to go open-source, is because our source code is also comprised of code from various other projects, which we do not have permission to release. Moreover, the developers of these projects are currently inactive, making it difficult for us to get said permissions. Hell if the code was 100% ours, I would honestly consider open source, but given our specific conditions, it's simply not possible for us. I don't want to release something and suffer backlash for it. I prefer to play it safe.

I've helped everyone who asked me in private. I handed out bits of code that were my work, and I even welcomed a new developer on my team that is currently working with me on 1.12.8. At the very least I interact with the community. I never left anyone hanging.

QUOTE

Why should they? I mean, the reasons could be arbritary as yours and you gain nothing out of it. The obvious reason against sharing is that they want to unite the playerbase. Having three different servers that divide the people is something they want to avoid (though, it's a poor mindset, really).
I also think that there is some sort of political decisions - but that's pure speculation on my part.


So if everyone went ahead and made their own server people would just jump on it? Doubtful.
Not everyone can release his own server and have people use it, but anyone can make his own community patch and we've seen a lot of those already. This would also happen if we went open-source.
They should at the very least be more interactive with the community and listen to what they have been asking for, for the past 6 years. Instead, we don't even know if these guys are active or not, whether they are currently working on something or not, or at least if they can be reached somehow. It's always a mystery.

QUOTE

Like your maps? smile.gif
I mean, it's obvious, don't you think? They are not done. Perhaps nobody works there, now. Who knows.


For some incomprehensible reason you keep comparing the community patch to Revora's server which are 2 completely different things. But then again, at this point I'm used to you criticizing the patch at any given opportunity. You've been doing it since the beginning of time. No offense, but it is what it is.

I think we can both agree that people care infinitely more about the server than they do about the patch. People can do just fine by playing 1.12. They've been playing it for 8 years. But can we say the same about the online server that keeps the game going? No, of course not. The server and the map pack are completely different things.

Let's put aside the fact that I am developing a map pack for this game, and just consider me a member who simply plays the game. I have just as much right to say what I said as anyone else.

This post has been edited by Constable Chris: Mar 4 2021, 20:25 PM

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