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Top 5 Spacezoomers

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# 1trucky Sep 8 2021, 18:01 PM
In RotWK, there are Regular players, and then there are Zoomers. These Zoomers are here among us, playing in our games, and they should be flamed hard because it is a huge advantage to see more of the map. I have heard some stupid arguments in my life from pro-zoomer noobs saying "zooming does not help u play better" so firstly here are the main reasons why it is a huge advantage:
1. You can see the whole fucking map.
2. In RTS there is correlation between skill level and EAPM (Effective Actions Per Minute). The faster you click, the more 'actions' you can make, so the better you are. If you have the same game knowledge as another player but you are clicking twice as fast, you will beat his noob ass every time. Each player has a finite amount of APM because you cannot click infinitely fast, so APM is always capped. Moving the camera around the map uses up your APM. And it uses a lot of APM in RotWK because at top level you will have units in more than 1 place in the map - sometimes a pro can control 4 or 5 independent groups of units.
3. Minimap. If a Regular (non-zoomer) sees his/her enemy on the minimap is coming from two places at the same time, the Regular player must use APM to click and move his/her map to see what the enemy units are. Is it a Lindon Horse Archer? Is it a Mithlond Sentry? Or could it be... Treebeard? You need to know and you need to know NOW so you can send the right type of unit to defend each side. A Spacezoomer has access to this information immediately, without lifting a finger to find out. Heck, Spacezoomers do not even need a minimap at all because they can see everything immediately on his screen and react a lot faster.
4. Zooming takes away the art of screen-pulling. In RTS, screen-pulling means making something happen on one side of the map in order to enable making a bigger play on the other side. A good example in RotWK would be like this: you attack the enemy builder on one side of the map and at the same time use arrow volley on his main army. Your enemy will get a little sound like "Our builder is under attack!" so while he presses B or Spacebar to deal with that threat, you can almost guarantee that his screen will not be on his main army in that split-second. That is the exact moment to use arrow volley because he won't see it coming fast enough (or at all). You have a better chance of landing arrow volley by using a screen-pull on your enemy and you can't screen-pull a zoomer.
5. You can react to micro-adjustments a lot faster. In RotWK you have to micro all the time and it is easy to gain huge advantages just using micro. It is important to be watching your units all the time to see when your enemy adjusts the micro of his units in battle. For example fast units like goblin warriors and rivendell lancers can out-micro any sword/pike unit around a farm in order to maximise damage - the optimal is to pull the defending unit around the farm so it tries to attack your unit from both sides of the farm, meaning you take the farm for free. These micro-adjustments happen very quickly and if you can see everything that's happening on one screen it is a huge advantage because you can see easily where you are being out-micro'd.
6. Hotkey tax. In this game, you've gotta assign hotkeys to your units and barracks if you want to git gud. It is very common to put barracks on hotkeys 1-2-3-4 and then put units on 5-6-7-8. You wanna put cavalry on a hotkey, and dark rangers on another hotkey so you don't screw up that juicy longshot. There is a brain-tax every time you use a hotkey because it takes effort to assign it and remember it. Zoomers do not need to hotkey any of their production buildings because they can just click them easily without taking their eyes off the battle. That is absolutely huge. Zoomers can use hotkeys 1-2-3-4-5-6... all for units if they want, making it easier for their hand to use fewer hotkeys. They can also easily grab units that just spawned and group them together or send them out - no need to move the camera away from battle or adjust waypoints. Zooming gives you total effortless control of your forces.

In the dark world of zooming, there are 3 different types:
1. Spacezoomers. These are the worst type - they can zoom out indefinitely and see everything inside the fog of war.
2. Widescreeners. These people choose to play on widescreen mode so they can see approximately 50% more than a regular player. It makes their game look completely stretched out and totally ruins the aesthetics of the game - just to get the zoom advantage - it is so sad.
3. Zoomer/Zoomernoob. This is just a generic term for anyone who sets their zoom above the traditional 560 map height or is pro-zoom.

Now, here is my list of the top 5 Zoomers:
1. S@uron. Rank 1 zoomer because he's way too good to be zooming. He is a fully-fledged Spacezoomer so he sees everything inside the fog of war. Anyone claiming to be a top-5 player should do it without cheating IMO. Upon learning that Spacezoom would soon be made impossible by the 2.02 development team, he caused a giant war between the devs and the streamers. We lost many good soldiers in this fight - Mr.Smokkk, Velenorion, and others. Please see my informative video for more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pCdo1i-_eQ
2. AndySan. The original zoomer - AndySan popularised Widescreening on his twitch stream ahead of the 2020 World Championships where he famously got crushed by Boyz|trucky. Andy stopped zooming, for which I commend him, and it is largely thanks to him that we have this great meme.
3. Ahwehawe is a despicable Spacezoomer who also competes for top-5 warrior and does well in tournaments. He also has a shit name and talks weird like he's not seen another human being for 10 years.
4. Maru - the first time I ever played Maru he was saying I only won because of lag so I told him he would never beat me. This simple comment made him rage so hard it was awesome, and to this day he has never beaten me in 1v1. Maru is a widescreener - any zoomers who flame are super lame and deserve to be in this list. I see Maru is now friends with Platino so they can cry about me together.
5. And finally, this list could not be complete without BeyondStandards. He prefers to create lag and unfairness in the world championship tournaments than actually run a fair competition to find the best player. He prefers to divide a community further by using a 2.02v8.4beta14 patch, rather than whatever the most recent patch is - and all because of Spacezoom. He also banned a lot of anti-zoom folk from his stream / tournaments and he has not unbanned them yet so for as long as these guys are banned, I must include him. It's all absolutely crazy.

In conclusion - it is not in the spirit of the game to use any zoom above the standard set by the 2.02 development team. If you want to play with spacezoom, there is a good game you can install called The Sims where you can see all. Zooming also creates more lag and I think everyone agrees we don't need more lag in this game.

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Game: Rise of the Witchking 2.01


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# 2TheEternalUniverse Sep 8 2021, 18:47 PM
TOP KEK.

Masterclass. Besides the good trolling, you provide really good arguments and facts about how an RTS plays out and how big of a change a simple zoom out does to its gameplay. You also shine light on the TOP KEK stupidiest drama ever, that could've been avoided so easily by choosing the smart and respectful way over ego. I laughed at it back then and I laugh at it now. One guy could've ended the non sense easily, but hey, life is hard. The blame is not all his though. I laugh but its unfortunate, when I happened to encounter the same problem I was pretty sad, it just so happens it wasn't the right person, and now I laugh to its stupidity.

I think the community would be a little better if people talked to each other and did not have ban easy fingers. Of course we all know of who we're talking about here and to be honest I don't have any hope for that person, he has shown his colors time and time again, and its unfortunate but it is what it issss. But we never know.

One point to BOYZ clan - SDK in shambles after this meteoric post! How is the Slovenian clan going to recover from this ?!!!

Find out in the next episode of CLAN WARS: battle of nabs.

This post has been edited by TheEternalUniverse: Sep 8 2021, 18:50 PM

Posts: 98

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 3Feanor Sep 8 2021, 20:17 PM
QUOTE
1. You can see the whole fucking map.

QUOTE
where he famously got crushed by Boyz|trucky

laugh.gif

Hitting a lot of nails on their head.

Never change.

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Game: Graphics


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# 4Ab3r` Sep 8 2021, 22:32 PM
When you have your camera near the fog of war with regular zoom you get unit calls from within the fog, like hearing cav or hero voice lines, I wonder if you use spacezoom you get these same calls? Be interested to know.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 5Talosgod Sep 9 2021, 05:50 AM
LMAO, I disagree with some things about the players, but it is masterfully written

Posts: 163

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 6SeŮorEcthelion Sep 9 2021, 06:23 AM
QUOTE(Ab3r` @ Sep 8 2021, 19:32 PM) *

When you have your camera near the fog of war with regular zoom you get unit calls from within the fog, like hearing cav or hero voice lines, I wonder if you use spacezoom you get these same calls? Be interested to know.

space zoomers basicaly have no audio, except for scripted events like "they r attacking ur builder."


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Game: Battle for Middle Earth 2


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# 7Shanks Sep 9 2021, 10:40 AM
You know what makes me laugh?
That some guys only keep talking instead of playing the game xd
The patch developers are not even playing RotWK do they?
I see them playing only AOTR or I donít see them at all in the past 2 years.
The ĄEvent Managerď has been on exile since Gandalf left middle earth together with Frodo.
The Admin is training for the world championship of call of duty.
And the others? I have no clue.

But no problemo, I will take the blame and will keep using the version I feel most comfortable with.

BTW, we currently have a tournament going, you should tune in.

Patching/Balancing the game without playing/participating or even watching it.. is the biggest skill ever.


P.S. You talk about making the game more Ącompetitiveď when in reality all the competition we got in the past 2-3 years were the tournaments I have hosted yet you remove a feature of the game in a secret discord server with no informations and if people disagree , you donít care. Since then, you are all AFK and the patch isnít even finished yet.
I wouldnít be surprised if you remove all graphic options but very low soon too. Respect is two sided. If you donít respect other guys opinions, donít be pissed when they dont accept all the changes you come up with.

Have a good day boyz and keep talking because it really helps the game and the community

Posts: 727

Clan: PIRATES

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 8Andy San Sep 9 2021, 11:00 AM
only player from 2.02 that plays aotr sometimes its me and im not even part of the team biggrin.gif

as for the topic good memes laugh.gif

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 9BalindruCW.RO Sep 9 2021, 11:57 AM
Before you read I need to say that what I write here is just my personal opinion, I dont say this for shanks or for the 2.02 devs.
So I have a question, as far as I know this was a known problem (zoom) so why they removed the zoom only after shanks started to use it, we even said that we would control the players before the games.
I remember when we all were excited to see the new patch and test it and watch the games with the patch , champion league was a great thing , in every shanks stream there were 200+ people , Velenorion was about to get partner on twitch , when all the drama happened with the zoom and people being banned I even felt a bit sick ( in Romania we say " I feel something empty in my stomach " ) even if I dont play myself I was sad .
I agree with zoom being a cheat in the game when you play but when you cast is good, let's say a new player wants to watch a rotwk game with 2 great players ( for example MayShadowFax vs King Mustafa ) its better for him to learn if he can see all the map and what they are doing all over the map.
It's sad because the community is divided but I think now its time for the 2.02 devs to let something go and accept because its better for the game, shanks accepted all the changes so far and made tournaments and he was always bringing new people back to the game I think he deserves something.
I hope we can make this community great again and I thing the change needs to come from the 2.02 people this time because this is a small community and I dont want it to be like in bfme 1 divided in 2 : 1.06 and 1.09.
If you read until the end thank you, I know is nothing big but I felt like I also need to say something.

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# 10ballsdeep Sep 9 2021, 13:27 PM
QUOTE(BalindruCW.RO @ Sep 9 2021, 11:57 AM) *

Before you read I need to say that what I write here is just my personal opinion, I dont say this for shanks or for the 2.02 devs.
So I have a question, as far as I know this was a known problem (zoom) so why they removed the zoom only after shanks started to use it, we even said that we would control the players before the games.
I remember when we all were excited to see the new patch and test it and watch the games with the patch , champion league was a great thing , in every shanks stream there were 200+ people , Velenorion was about to get partner on twitch , when all the drama happened with the zoom and people being banned I even felt a bit sick ( in Romania we say " I feel something empty in my stomach " ) even if I dont play myself I was sad .
I agree with zoom being a cheat in the game when you play but when you cast is good, let's say a new player wants to watch a rotwk game with 2 great players ( for example MayShadowFax vs King Mustafa ) its better for him to learn if he can see all the map and what they are doing all over the map.
It's sad because the community is divided but I think now its time for the 2.02 devs to let something go and accept because its better for the game, shanks accepted all the changes so far and made tournaments and he was always bringing new people back to the game I think he deserves something.
I hope we can make this community great again and I thing the change needs to come from the 2.02 people this time because this is a small community and I dont want it to be like in bfme 1 divided in 2 : 1.06 and 1.09.
If you read until the end thank you, I know is nothing big but I felt like I also need to say something.





1) Zoom has always been an issue which majority have disliked. Shanks made the zoom out easily available and widely known by promoting it in his discord.

2) Adding zoom for observers only is something that was considered and tried but so far has had no luck.

3) The 2.02 devs will never ďlet something goĒ that has an inherent negative influence on balance and the game. It isnít up to shanks, me, or anyone else outside of staff what changes go or do not go into the new patch.

4) The change needs to come from shanks. He banned numerous people who did nothing wrong. Zoom out being banned is going to happen next patch. He hosted previous WCs without zoom out with no issues and suddenly itís the biggest issue + WCs canít possibly take place without it. Several people have tried to reach out to shanks to try and fix things and heís either blocked or ghosted them. Channel your energy towards him, he is the one who needs to accept zoom out is here to stay + repair the bridges he burnt by trying to split the community between beta patches (I got banned for saying this would happen.. low and behold, itís happened).

Posts: 53


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# 11MauHķR Sep 9 2021, 14:02 PM
In light of this astute presentation of the zoomer problem by Trucky I would like to use this opportunity to outline some of the psychological side-effects of this phenomenon aswell:

Studies of the Sakura Forest University have shown an increased desire for control and tendencies of paranoia in consumers of the zoom, directly proportional to the level of zoom-out used.
This is likely caused by the subject's constant exposure to all the information available on the map, making it difficult for them to believe that there are things going on that are out of their influence or even completely unknown.
Being used to this level of intell, the most commonly displayed symptoms of zoomers are:
  • grandeur and delusion
  • deceitfulness
  • proneness to sudden outbursts and erratic behaviour
The psychological effects of zooming can be directly derived from the in-game effects. It is a classic negative feedback loop that deteriorates the RTS skills and the perception of reality:

Attached Image

Naturally this hollowing process leads to an overestimation of the zoomer's own judgement and skill. They grow more dependent on it as time passes and will have an increasingly harder time to let go of it.
In most cases interventions by third parties are necessary to prevent its' dangerous spread.
While rare cases of healthy recovery have been reported (See 3. in trucky's list), the common response to deprivation of zoom is childish behaviour, denial, escapism and ranting.

This stands in direct contrast to the healthy RTS player. Being used to a certain, set amount of intell at all time, they know when to pay attention to the right thing and do not try to access private information at the cost of their integrity.
They will only try to manage things that are under their control and accept the boundaries of their vision and influence.

Since I dont want to go beyond the scope of this topic I will leave it here. For anyone interested in the details of this research, feel free to pm me.


Posts: 3,857

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 12Ab3r` Sep 9 2021, 14:09 PM
Man I wish I could win the Call of Duty World Champs, that $1.2 Million prize pool would be great for hiring a reverse engineer for RotWK.

Zoom has always been an issue, there were a couple players who were known to have had the file for a couple years now, it became a much more prevalent issue when there was a YT video explaining how to download it. There is no debate on zoom, I agree for casting its great, I donít thing anyone disagrees with that. The issue is as Trucky said around decreasing the skill required as it removes some fundamentals from typical RTS games. Potentially there is a conversation to be had about what the zoom limit should be 500, 600, 700. As it stands we tried but we canít create a method where observers can zoom but players canít, again we would need a Reverse Engineer, so maybe letís all focus on trying to source one so we can have the game we want, less lag, no offhost delay and observer zoom?

Also the patch is finished! Testing is down, we have a completed beta which is great news, now there is the arduous task of committing these changes to GitHub and creating an installer.

Hopefully when we have finished we can all get back to happy families and enjoy so great RotWK tournaments and games.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 13Shanks Sep 9 2021, 14:41 PM
For everyone, who wasnít included in the big fiesta drama couple of months ago:

I was never defending the zoom-out for the players! Indeed I was looking for a solution to even control them before each game, so no one could use it. But letís make somethings clear, before I made this youtube video, only a few (experienced and good players) knew about zoom-out. They were abusing that maybe for a couple of years, while all the others didnít know how to make it work. I personally see this much more as a problem then when everyone gets access to it.

But again, the discussion is beyond zoom out for me. We were having discussions in the discord about that matter for a while and I was asking if it would be possible to zoom-out as observer only and got a answer like Ąwe are developers, we decide, life is hardď followed by some screenshots of the things people were saying behind my back.

Now some of you might say, ĄWhat is so bad about that if people shit talk you behind your backď well it is bad for me, when some people are trying to sabotage the tournament instead of trying to find a way of fixing the problem.

The approach was so bad too! As I was ALWAYS using the most recent BETA patch for the league games, Ahwe sent me the file of BETA15 literally 10 minutes before I started the stream without telling me ANYTHING and I had to figure out within the game, that the zoom-out was removed with 0 communication beforehand and have to live with that.

Ballsdeep is saying ĄThe other WCS was also without zoom-outď yea thatís true! But only because I didnít know how to make it work back in the day! Itís like when you lose your car and I would tell you, well you didnít have a car 2 years ago as well so live with it.

ĄWe are developers we decideď is such a BS statement, as this isnt a game which is super popular and opinions of EVERYONE should be considered and some changes should be discussed before applying them in a new patch. You just canít simply expect everyone to welcome all the changes to come up with within a discord server only a few people have access to

It is even funnier when you guys tell me, that it isnít possible to make it work for observers only when in reality Nameless was sending me a file after BETA15 was released which was allowing me to zoom-out and not causing OOS.

To sum it up: After all the shenanigans what happened, I will not use any patch which wonít allow me to zoom-out. Normally I donít take this kind of stuff personal, but this time I do. To a statement like ĄWe are developers we decideď all I can say, ĄWell then I can decide which version I am going to useď.

Since years I have been doing my thing and was investing my free time in stuff which could bring joy to the majority and of course to myself , if somebody dislikes me, its fine BUT if somebody joins my discord or twitch channel and trash talks me AND then I ban them, it should also be fine. People who dislike me, my streams or my tournaments can simply stay away from them, canít remember to force anybody to join me.

All I can say is: Last year, someone got promoted to staff right after trashtalking me and calling the tournament a fake, sending zip files to multiple members of the community but making a smurf account 1 year later to participate in the tournament of somebody he was calling fake last year and this year we remove the zoom-out which is existing for a long time , after I started using itÖ coincidence?

I really donít want to argue about that stuff anymore, seems like we wonít be able to find a middle ground both sides would agree with anyway. You do you and just let me do me.


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Clan: PIRATES

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 14BalindruCW.RO Sep 9 2021, 14:52 PM
QUOTE(ballsdeep @ Sep 9 2021, 13:27 PM) *

1) Zoom has always been an issue which majority have disliked. Shanks made the zoom out easily available and widely known by promoting it in his discord.

2) Adding zoom for observers only is something that was considered and tried but so far has had no luck.

3) The 2.02 devs will never ďlet something goĒ that has an inherent negative influence on balance and the game. It isnít up to shanks, me, or anyone else outside of staff what changes go or do not go into the new patch.

4) The change needs to come from shanks. He banned numerous people who did nothing wrong. Zoom out being banned is going to happen next patch. He hosted previous WCs without zoom out with no issues and suddenly itís the biggest issue + WCs canít possibly take place without it. Several people have tried to reach out to shanks to try and fix things and heís either blocked or ghosted them. Channel your energy towards him, he is the one who needs to accept zoom out is here to stay + repair the bridges he burnt by trying to split the community between beta patches (I got banned for saying this would happen.. low and behold, itís happened).


1) That true, he promoted the zoom so all people can use it, if everyone can use it is it still a cheat?
3) And as you said "Zoom has always been an issue which majority have disliked" why not fix it before and now for shanks is not only the zoom that is a problem, his problem is that the shit talked him and for example Eternal was banned, after 1 year or less I think he got unbanned and meanwhile he made a second account on discord,twitch and maybe gr just to play in champion league.
And what you mean "did nothing wrong" if I for example I say " you are a piece of human shit " and stuff like that , would you like it?
2) And for a beta version, I dont remember which version nameless made a patch that was working with the zoom.
4) I understand they are developers but sometimes the devs need to listen to the people also and you dont know how hyped shanks was because of the zoom because you need to think , as a content creator you want to give the best for your viewers and as a observer with the zoom you can.
Last year he didnt know about the zoom thats why but you always need to improve as a creator, always go over the limit
But still my main question is why they didnt remove the zoom earlier. All thing would be now back to normal.
And the devs need to listen to the players sometimes and we even proposed to search the players before every game to see if they have the zoom but I guess unlucky.
And one more question, it was worth it?

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# 15Ab3r` Sep 9 2021, 14:55 PM
The problem with the fix we found for zoom out for observer is it can also be manipulated by players, which means we end up in the same situation we are in now.

I think weíre basically on the same page, the only difference is I think that no players should have zoom as opposed to all players having zoom. Besides that I think we agree for casting its great and with the most recent patch weíve taken onboard the community feedback with balance issues, specifically stuff like Glorf etc.

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Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 16Pandorium Sep 9 2021, 15:00 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Sep 8 2021, 18:01 PM) *

In RotWK, there are Regular players, and then there are Zoomers. These Zoomers are here among us, playing in our games, and they should be flamed hard because it is a huge advantage to see more of the map. I have heard some stupid arguments in my life from pro-zoomer noobs saying "zooming does not help u play better" so firstly here are the main reasons why it is a huge advantage:
1. You can see the whole fucking map.
2. In RTS there is correlation between skill level and EAPM (Effective Actions Per Minute). The faster you click, the more 'actions' you can make, so the better you are. If you have the same game knowledge as another player but you are clicking twice as fast, you will beat his noob ass every time. Each player has a finite amount of APM because you cannot click infinitely fast, so APM is always capped. Moving the camera around the map uses up your APM. And it uses a lot of APM in RotWK because at top level you will have units in more than 1 place in the map - sometimes a pro can control 4 or 5 independent groups of units.
3. Minimap. If a Regular (non-zoomer) sees his/her enemy on the minimap is coming from two places at the same time, the Regular player must use APM to click and move his/her map to see what the enemy units are. Is it a Lindon Horse Archer? Is it a Mithlond Sentry? Or could it be... Treebeard? You need to know and you need to know NOW so you can send the right type of unit to defend each side. A Spacezoomer has access to this information immediately, without lifting a finger to find out. Heck, Spacezoomers do not even need a minimap at all because they can see everything immediately on his screen and react a lot faster.
4. Zooming takes away the art of screen-pulling. In RTS, screen-pulling means making something happen on one side of the map in order to enable making a bigger play on the other side. A good example in RotWK would be like this: you attack the enemy builder on one side of the map and at the same time use arrow volley on his main army. Your enemy will get a little sound like "Our builder is under attack!" so while he presses B or Spacebar to deal with that threat, you can almost guarantee that his screen will not be on his main army in that split-second. That is the exact moment to use arrow volley because he won't see it coming fast enough (or at all). You have a better chance of landing arrow volley by using a screen-pull on your enemy and you can't screen-pull a zoomer.
5. You can react to micro-adjustments a lot faster. In RotWK you have to micro all the time and it is easy to gain huge advantages just using micro. It is important to be watching your units all the time to see when your enemy adjusts the micro of his units in battle. For example fast units like goblin warriors and rivendell lancers can out-micro any sword/pike unit around a farm in order to maximise damage - the optimal is to pull the defending unit around the farm so it tries to attack your unit from both sides of the farm, meaning you take the farm for free. These micro-adjustments happen very quickly and if you can see everything that's happening on one screen it is a huge advantage because you can see easily where you are being out-micro'd.
6. Hotkey tax. In this game, you've gotta assign hotkeys to your units and barracks if you want to git gud. It is very common to put barracks on hotkeys 1-2-3-4 and then put units on 5-6-7-8. You wanna put cavalry on a hotkey, and dark rangers on another hotkey so you don't screw up that juicy longshot. There is a brain-tax every time you use a hotkey because it takes effort to assign it and remember it. Zoomers do not need to hotkey any of their production buildings because they can just click them easily without taking their eyes off the battle. That is absolutely huge. Zoomers can use hotkeys 1-2-3-4-5-6... all for units if they want, making it easier for their hand to use fewer hotkeys. They can also easily grab units that just spawned and group them together or send them out - no need to move the camera away from battle or adjust waypoints. Zooming gives you total effortless control of your forces.

In the dark world of zooming, there are 3 different types:
1. Spacezoomers. These are the worst type - they can zoom out indefinitely and see everything inside the fog of war.
2. Widescreeners. These people choose to play on widescreen mode so they can see approximately 50% more than a regular player. It makes their game look completely stretched out and totally ruins the aesthetics of the game - just to get the zoom advantage - it is so sad.
3. Zoomer/Zoomernoob. This is just a generic term for anyone who sets their zoom above the traditional 560 map height or is pro-zoom.

Now, here is my list of the top 5 Zoomers:
1. S@uron. Rank 1 zoomer because he's way too good to be zooming. He is a fully-fledged Spacezoomer so he sees everything inside the fog of war. Anyone claiming to be a top-5 player should do it without cheating IMO. Upon learning that Spacezoom would soon be made impossible by the 2.02 development team, he caused a giant war between the devs and the streamers. We lost many good soldiers in this fight - Mr.Smokkk, Velenorion, and others. Please see my informative video for more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pCdo1i-_eQ
2. AndySan. The original zoomer - AndySan popularised Widescreening on his twitch stream ahead of the 2020 World Championships where he famously got crushed by Boyz|trucky. Andy stopped zooming, for which I commend him, and it is largely thanks to him that we have this great meme.
3. Ahwehawe is a despicable Spacezoomer who also competes for top-5 warrior and does well in tournaments. He also has a shit name and talks weird like he's not seen another human being for 10 years.
4. Maru - the first time I ever played Maru he was saying I only won because of lag so I told him he would never beat me. This simple comment made him rage so hard it was awesome, and to this day he has never beaten me in 1v1. Maru is a widescreener - any zoomers who flame are super lame and deserve to be in this list. I see Maru is now friends with Platino so they can cry about me together.
5. And finally, this list could not be complete without BeyondStandards. He prefers to create lag and unfairness in the world championship tournaments than actually run a fair competition to find the best player. He prefers to divide a community further by using a 2.02v8.4beta14 patch, rather than whatever the most recent patch is - and all because of Spacezoom. He also banned a lot of anti-zoom folk from his stream / tournaments and he has not unbanned them yet so for as long as these guys are banned, I must include him. It's all absolutely crazy.

In conclusion - it is not in the spirit of the game to use any zoom above the standard set by the 2.02 development team. If you want to play with spacezoom, there is a good game you can install called The Sims where you can see all. Zooming also creates more lag and I think everyone agrees we don't need more lag in this game.


Lmfao the delusion on you...This is absolute fucking clown hour

The notion of it "Creating lag" is so fucking irrelevant, so what the fuck are you even on? Yoda on STREAM showed that it does indeed not generate any lag. He tested it on a heavily resource map to and the most lag he got was a SINGLE frame drop. He also proved that the ZOOM isn't getting anything for you. He doesn't use it and he showed, doesn't matter how far you zoom out. You don't get to see what a unit is compared to a builder. ZOOM you monkey doesn't effect the PING what so ever it effects the USER using the zoom on there FPS lag but even then it wouldn't be a huge lag at all

The map to "test" the lag was the most bullshit I have seen. Loading a full map in with goblins that move constantly in place. OF FUCKING COURSE IT'S GOING TO LAG DUMBASS. there is like 10k goblins moving in place and the old game engine can't handle it.

"2. Widescreeners. These people choose to play on widescreen mode so they can see approximately 50% more than a regular player. It makes their game look completely stretched out and totally ruins the aesthetics of the game - just to get the zoom advantage - it is so sad."

Are you like exceptionally stupid or? Just asking because if it was on a shorter screen it would fuck them. The fortress would be 60% the size of there screen so like what?

I'm a non zoomer in BFME2 I use the 560 zoom provided by THE PATCH but when playing rise of the witch king. My camera is inside of the fucking fortress because these so called "Patch Devs" which by the way out of all the "devs" only 1 guy knows how to code so thats awesome! So it's actually just a "Patch Dev" at this point who can't put a zoom option on there patch. So I HAVE to use zoom cheat or I can't legitimately play. With the gyazo gif provided, this shows me trying to zoom out and I can't, I have to use zoom or I can fucking play.

At this point, you're just shitting on shanks for no reason and an actual bafoon who just cries about zoom. I just generally don't give a fuck about it. It won't hurt me, there's been times where you can legit win against a zoomer. If they want to use it go ahead. Just stop being little bitches and just play the damn game. You all are actually just full on children crying about some extra zoom. Honestly ridiculous

P.S "Devs" your patch suck ass and have no clue how to balance a game. Maybe legitimately listen to your players and don't have an ego and this game could actually be played by more people and not just stuck on many modded versions who are most likely more healthier then this shit game smile.gif. Evidence of this is on gameranger, ROTWK is down bad XDDDDDDD. I don't play this shit game actively enough and I even could balance this shit game out if I knew how to code and shit but you know devs will ignore this and generally just do what THEY want.

This post has been edited by Pandorium: Sep 9 2021, 15:15 PM


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# 17BalindruCW.RO Sep 9 2021, 15:12 PM
QUOTE(Ab3r` @ Sep 9 2021, 14:55 PM) *

The problem with the fix we found for zoom out for observer is it can also be manipulated by players, which means we end up in the same situation we are in now.

I think weíre basically on the same page, the only difference is I think that no players should have zoom as opposed to all players having zoom. Besides that I think we agree for casting its great and with the most recent patch weíve taken onboard the community feedback with balance issues, specifically stuff like Glorf etc.

I read something with zoom and power points spells , it didnt worked?

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# 18Ab3r` Sep 9 2021, 15:23 PM
Weíre trying to work on fixing zoom for observers, thereís a couple trial and error processes that we have to keep working on. If we can add it we will, but it would be great if we could keep cool heads until we have a working solution.

Posts: 5,106

Game: Rise of the Witch King


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# 19ballsdeep Sep 9 2021, 16:05 PM
QUOTE(BalindruCW.RO @ Sep 9 2021, 14:52 PM) *

1) That true, he promoted the zoom so all people can use it, if everyone can use it is it still a cheat?
3) And as you said "Zoom has always been an issue which majority have disliked" why not fix it before and now for shanks is not only the zoom that is a problem, his problem is that the shit talked him and for example Eternal was banned, after 1 year or less I think he got unbanned and meanwhile he made a second account on discord,twitch and maybe gr just to play in champion league.
And what you mean "did nothing wrong" if I for example I say " you are a piece of human shit " and stuff like that , would you like it?
2) And for a beta version, I dont remember which version nameless made a patch that was working with the zoom.
4) I understand they are developers but sometimes the devs need to listen to the people also and you dont know how hyped shanks was because of the zoom because you need to think , as a content creator you want to give the best for your viewers and as a observer with the zoom you can.
Last year he didnt know about the zoom thats why but you always need to improve as a creator, always go over the limit
But still my main question is why they didnt remove the zoom earlier. All thing would be now back to normal.
And the devs need to listen to the players sometimes and we even proposed to search the players before every game to see if they have the zoom but I guess unlucky.
And one more question, it was worth it?


there are plenty of explanations in the original post and in this thread saying why zoom out is bad. just because the potential is there for everyone to do something does not mean that everyone should do that thing.

Why not fix it before? Everyone can ascertain why. Because it was a small issue, which the vast majority didnít even know existed 1/2 years ago. Because it became mainstream and at that point it had to be put to a stop. Yes they couldíve and shouldíve done something about it beforehand but you know how small the dev team is + how little time they have to work on things. They didnít do it to get at shanks or any other petty reason like that and iím fed up with that accusation being thrown around. Several people have thought about the impact on streamers and have discussed how to lessen it. I legit messaged staff the day that beta got released asking if the powerpoints bug could be a potential solution but so far it isnít possible.

When I said he banned people for no reason I wasnít talking about myself nor did i mention anyone in particular. Yes some people shit-talked about him but it wasnít everyone, yet everyone got punished. Shanks was ok with ety playing in the CL when he found out he was smurfing and gladly accepted a sub from him. In my opinion their previous drama was resolved at that point. Ety was still banned once Sauron sent Shanks the messages even though he had done or said nothing warranting a ban at that point. Yes he and others have trash talked since then, but it was post-ban.

This patch has had more community input than ever. It is an elitist process, you want the most qualified people making the decisions in a thing like this + not Ďthe communityí who are mostly made of up casual players and viewers. Iím not saying community input isnít valuable and clearly it is still considered but it shouldn't ever be the deciding factor in a balance decision.

What do you mean by was it worth it? All the devs did was make a balance decision. Everything else that has happened since then was a result of shanks thinking a balance decision was some underhanded attempt to undermine him. The staff didnít kick or ban anyone, the staff didnít delay a tournament, the staff didnít encourage people to play old beta patches.

There is one solution in my eyes and that would be the staff/shanks having a call where they agree to disagree, forget what both sides have said/done, + move on and play the new patch with zoom out disabled. From the staffs perspective at the moment, why should they throw energy + personal time into trying to find an observer fix for a streamer who has banned them from their community + refuses to communicate with any of them? Again I am not staff but Iím sure at least some of them are willing to start a dialogue to get things on the right track but shanks has to meet them halfway. What can staff do if they are all banned + their attempts to talk are ignored?

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# 20BalindruCW.RO Sep 9 2021, 16:58 PM
QUOTE(ballsdeep @ Sep 9 2021, 16:05 PM) *

there are plenty of explanations in the original post and in this thread saying why zoom out is bad. just because the potential is there for everyone to do something does not mean that everyone should do that thing.

Why not fix it before? Everyone can ascertain why. Because it was a small issue, which the vast majority didnít even know existed 1/2 years ago. Because it became mainstream and at that point it had to be put to a stop. Yes they couldíve and shouldíve done something about it beforehand but you know how small the dev team is + how little time they have to work on things. They didnít do it to get at shanks or any other petty reason like that and iím fed up with that accusation being thrown around. Several people have thought about the impact on streamers and have discussed how to lessen it. I legit messaged staff the day that beta got released asking if the powerpoints bug could be a potential solution but so far it isnít possible.

When I said he banned people for no reason I wasnít talking about myself nor did i mention anyone in particular. Yes some people shit-talked about him but it wasnít everyone, yet everyone got punished. Shanks was ok with ety playing in the CL when he found out he was smurfing and gladly accepted a sub from him. In my opinion their previous drama was resolved at that point. Ety was still banned once Sauron sent Shanks the messages even though he had done or said nothing warranting a ban at that point. Yes he and others have trash talked since then, but it was post-ban.

This patch has had more community input than ever. It is an elitist process, you want the most qualified people making the decisions in a thing like this + not Ďthe communityí who are mostly made of up casual players and viewers. Iím not saying community input isnít valuable and clearly it is still considered but it shouldn't ever be the deciding factor in a balance decision.

What do you mean by was it worth it? All the devs did was make a balance decision. Everything else that has happened since then was a result of shanks thinking a balance decision was some underhanded attempt to undermine him. The staff didnít kick or ban anyone, the staff didnít delay a tournament, the staff didnít encourage people to play old beta patches.

There is one solution in my eyes and that would be the staff/shanks having a call where they agree to disagree, forget what both sides have said/done, + move on and play the new patch with zoom out disabled. From the staffs perspective at the moment, why should they throw energy + personal time into trying to find an observer fix for a streamer who has banned them from their community + refuses to communicate with any of them? Again I am not staff but Iím sure at least some of them are willing to start a dialogue to get things on the right track but shanks has to meet them halfway. What can staff do if they are all banned + their attempts to talk are ignored?

Why would devs try to give shanks a zoom tool is not like he is making the only tournaments for this game and bringing new people, no he is just a guy with 0 viewers that is streaming the game for fun

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