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Panzer IV vs Hotchkiss

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# 1realquad Feb 11 2012, 19:26 PM
A question for all the Pe players out there, I Searched the forums and surprisingly i found dusty posts discussing this long time ago.

Wasn't hotchkiss tank buffed at some point.

Is there a way to utilize it in somewhat useful way?

frankly as playing allies i don't recall having much trouble with that unit, as opposed to a well microed P4.
as playing PE in 2v2 i was trying to use it together with stealthy kettens to bombard AT guns/ clustered inf with snipers / squads capping points / british placements.

It did ok, but it never got more kills that even let-say my mortar HTs. It just has way log cool down. I tried to use munition HT to shorten the cool-down, but seems it has no effect.

some ideas about playing well with that ToV unit would be great.

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# 2jwvd Feb 12 2012, 10:30 AM
i can only say my experiences from 1v1 so keep that in mind

the pz4ist is needed becouse it is the only unit PE has that can beat a rifle+bar/ranger blob head on

the hotch is a great unit but the PE NEEDS a blob control
personally i prefer the hotch but i get killed by riflemen blobs a lot... sad.gif

how to play with hotch: its a good inf support unit, it has really dangerous arty and can beat most light vehicles, or at least force them to retreat
use it as mobile arty and to force lone capping units to retreat

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# 3Mortality Feb 12 2012, 11:47 AM
PZ IV would be much more useful in my opinion - though in 2v2 AT with a friend getting Hoch STUKAS up with support of 88 for example can be crucial. But never Arty AT-guns with Hoch stukas - does very insignificant damage which could be used in a same time to emplacements, tanks or infantry blobs especially considering the long cool-down.

Following to information over here munitions halftrack does not do any cool-down time reduction - tho didn't tested myself...

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# 4madner Feb 15 2012, 12:45 PM
You don't get the Hotckins for the walking stuka, you have to use it as a M8 to make it worth it.

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# 5Deda Feb 16 2012, 19:38 PM
Use it as an m8?! The thing is worthless! It costs way too much for what it does and I've given it a good chance to prove its worth. Snipes the odd infantryman and thats about it, against light vehicles it's OK but against anything more substantial it fails. The only time you could use it to supplement an arty deficiency on a double PE team, and nothing more.

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# 6madner Feb 17 2012, 09:39 AM
It is actually not that expensive, both in fuel and MP. The problem is that the PZ-IV fill a completly different niche.

Would you call the Stuart completly useless?

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# 7SanchezIR Feb 22 2012, 11:41 AM
QUOTE(madner @ Feb 15 2012, 13:45 PM) *

You don't get the Hotckins for the walking stuka, you have to use it as a M8 to make it worth it.

No can do, sir. Hotchkiss has no mg (like M8 upgrade) so much less AI killing power.
And it doesn't recive any bonuses against RR/Zookas (M8 can stand 2-3 more hits from schrecks, than hotchkiss from bazookas/recoiless rifles), so it plain down sucks against heavy us infantry.

It's suprisingly good after the upgun against Pershing, though. But you'll need 2-3 of them anyway, and it will be a suicide mission most of the time... so not that worth it.
Which leads to only real scenario, where it's somehow decent:

QUOTE(Deda @ Feb 16 2012, 20:38 PM) *

....The only time you could use it to supplement an arty deficiency on a double PE team, and nothing more.


That is really nice. A dedicated SE "arty" PE player (MHTs, hotchkis with stuka upgrade and Hummel) can be very powerfull in the dual PE team.

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# 8madner Feb 24 2012, 13:53 PM
QUOTE(SanchezIR @ Feb 22 2012, 11:41 AM) *

No can do, sir. Hotchkiss has no mg (like M8 upgrade) so much less AI killing power.
And it doesn't recive any bonuses against RR/Zookas (M8 can stand 2-3 more hits from schrecks, than hotchkiss from bazookas/recoiless rifles), so it plain down sucks against heavy us infantry.

That is really nice. A dedicated SE "arty" PE player (MHTs, hotchkis with stuka upgrade and Hummel) can be very powerfull in the dual PE team.


I wasn't clear, I don't use the M8 or the Hotchkins as in your face units, as they die very fast to serious AT.
But they are great at holding a side vs a caping unit or two.

It is true it lacks a HMG, but the stock version has a very fast firing main gun that is actually very decent at picking off infantry. The PZ-IV has to get close and personal, the Hotckins is a unit with a different purpose imho.

The math is a bit off, you need 4 hits with zookas and 5 with RR to kill a Hotchkins. You need 4 hits with schreck squads to kill M8. That said, unless you allow them to get really close the Hotckins can escape from one ranger squad while inflicting some MP drain.


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# 9realquad Feb 29 2012, 17:43 PM
after testing may times in 2v2s...
Hotchkiss is very decisive with brits as you can spam them at mid game and get 2 hotchkisses as means of brit blob destruction.
1 hotchkiss shoots -> brit retreats 2 hotchkiss shoots on command truck position -> bad day for brit.

it is somewhat ok if you pay against mixed allies, it can be used to bleed his inf from distance and chase of snipers by barraging their location. always important to use 2 of them, 1 snipes inf the other shoots barrage to cover its retreat. Then it is possible to rotate between the tanks.

dreadful against stationary AME play on Lorraine, as it will pretty much negate the advantages of such play, but then again, most descent ally players don't spam 3 mgs and camp out.

The greatest Con is that if you play with 2 AME armies, you will cry loud for that P4, P4 can seriously stall a heavy inf play.

Bottom line, i would choose a hotchkiss only if i know that my strat will be limited to luft doc. cause:
1)then you can repair it early on with AR using cheap luft troops, so effectively i can bleed MP from my rivals as long as i keep it repaired fast and busy often.
2)it somewhat gives you the option to skip getting MHT
3)you still can stall inf in midgame with called in elite troops or flak tank
4)luft doc is not heavily ammo consuming so you will have the ammo for the shtukas.
5)it works nicely with stealth kettens as you can barrage unsuspecting forces.
6)gives an art option for a doc with no art
7) in late game hotchkisses are effective to work together with f88: f88 protects the light tank from heavy tanks, the light tanks protects 88 from inf (as said atleast 2 hotckisses), furthermore it can counter barrage art that targets the 88.

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# 10quoclong Mar 2 2012, 22:03 PM
hotchkiss is good vs brit and inf blobs. They are also good vs light vehicles. Much better vs m8's stuarts then p4. Faster and cheaper then P4 too. There is a difference though, P4's more like shock and inf blob support unit. The hotchkiss is more like a light vehicle counter and with upgrade walking stuka. You play and use them both differently. Depending on your style of play or opponents either can be effective but most "noobs" would prefer the p4 since they think it is a tank and just rush it deep into enemy lines to just die ><

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# 11JimyS Mar 3 2012, 14:04 PM
Hotchkiss is usefull vs light infantry ( rifles, sections, engies ) but not that good vs blob of piats and rangers/parratroopers.

It's good for the early game at pushing back stuarts/m8s but that's all. At late game it's just waste of mp+fuel if you don't upgrade it to walking stuka but it's cooldown is intolerable.

This post has been edited by JimyS: Mar 3 2012, 22:09 PM

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# 12haussaire Apr 9 2012, 18:09 PM
hotch is also good with swimwagon-luftwaffe and it's unusual ability to stuka in the fog ...

i use them behind the twin pantheras as support

if P4f misses you, buy more G43 to stop inf (yes lot's of ammo) and stuka that
hotchkiss need to be 2-3-4 to be loved, while P4f is good even the first one

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# 13Beina May 8 2012, 05:42 AM
i tried to make hotch work.

I failed - it sucks.

lvl16 1v1 pe.

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# 14ThatSnazzyMoustache May 9 2012, 10:34 AM
I don't know so much about how effective they are in 1v1s, but in dual PE 2v2 ats Hotchkisses are the perfect unit.

In the mid game you can expect to see one opponent making a blob of infantry and one going for fast light armour. No other unit provides a counter to both of these whilst still being useful later into the game.

Against light armour the hotchkiss is a hard counter. Upgrade with the 75mm gun and it outclasses anything on the field. It can easily be brought out as early as a stuart or a greyhound and make them obsolete before they've even had a chance to engage. As well as this the hotchkiss can be brought out so early it can be used in the same way as a greyhound or stuart against early infantry spam.

Compare this to the light AT halftrack. The light AT halftrack is useless against infantry and serves mainly as a deterrent to light armour. A well micro'd stuart or greyhound can kill an AT halftrack.

The PIV cannot reliably be brought out early enough to counter light armour. It is also more expensive, particularly in terms of manpower. By the time it does enter the field your opponent will most likely have an AT gun or a large infantry blob capable of ripping it apart. The hotchkiss can deal with AT-guns and infantry blobs easily with stuka upgrade.

Here are a couple of replays to back up my point - in both the hotchkiss arrives on the field at the right time to counter light armour and is also able to counter early infantry. Later in the game the stukas are vital to keep blobs heads down.


Attached File r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzmatchna.rec
Size: 1.02mb
Number of downloads: 90
Player Name Side Team
Wheeeeee 1
demonwomb 1
CloudyPiss 2
GrittyDiarrhoea 2

Attached File tactic2r8gameminorversiongamemajorversionzgameversion199.117372_042711_091818matchna.rec
Size: 1.42mb
Number of downloads: 44
Player Name Side Team
NafNafas 1
NifNifas 1
CloudyPiss 2
GrittyDiarrhoea 2

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# 15Deda May 31 2012, 14:41 PM
The main drawback is it's squishyness, against hand held AT it will loose, and against AT guns, it's gone in two shots, in terms of arty a single 105 shell can nearly kill it. It can counter light armor, it has decent range, pair it up with a AT-HT and a ketten for spotting and you're set. Against infantry, short of the most early engagements, you shouldn't count on it as a frontline unit. From my 2v2 At experience.

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# 16crazychameleon Jul 13 2012, 12:20 PM
The hotchkiss is a good tank but is expensive lacks in any anti tank and even with the upgrade it is no better at AT than the panzer IV IS it replaces. The stuka is amazing but it is a T4 vehicle, not worth it.

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# 17jdlev Jun 30 2017, 01:54 AM
QUOTE(jwvd @ Feb 12 2012, 10:30 AM) *

i can only say my experiences from 1v1 so keep that in mind

the pz4ist is needed because it is the only unit PE has that can beat a rifle+bar/ranger blob head on

the hotch is a great unit but the PE NEEDS a blob control
personally i prefer the hotch but i get killed by riflemen blobs a lot... sad.gif

how to play with hotch: its a good inf support unit, it has really dangerous arty and can beat most light vehicles, or at least force them to retreat
use it as mobile arty and to force lone capping units to retreat


I'd have to respectfully disagree...at least w/ the point on the hotchkiss being great. I can't remember the art from it killing more than 1 or 2 troops at once...never seen it take out an entire squad. It's armor is paper thin. The only thing it has is like you mentioned...stopping rogue squads from capping. Virtually any type of at...it's/they're dead. If you don't have the IV and/or a bunch of mp44s vetted, you immediately get overrun by blobs. Upgrading the cannon for 75a is virtually worthless. I've tried using the hotch just for fun a few times, and it's proven absolutely worthless pretty much every time. For a vehicle 'reward', it's pretty much a joke. I don't know...maybe w/ the cannon upgrade it'd be good early/mid game vs gh's or t17s. As far as tanks go, unless you vet all the way through the game and get the dual panthers...the tanks for PE are pretty worthless. Sure the MIII isn't bad...but only if you surprise your opponent and just basically use them as PAKs. Even then, you need more than 1, or your opponents take them out with anything that's got even a touch of speed. Still...even the panthers seem like both their armor and guns have been nerfed. All it takes is 3 snipers coupled w/ 2 US at guns, and the US player can control any map that's remotely open.

All I can say is every time I try playing with it, I'm like...wtf is this even in the game?! Of course...i'm just average...maybe I'm not using it right. PE is by far the hardest faction to play in this game if you don't rush every single time. Just my $.02 anyways.

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