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Heroes of Newerth

Most competitive MOBA DotA-style Game?

Which MOBA game has the highest competitive potential?
9.09% (2)
Defender of the Ancients (DotA)
50.00% (11)
DOTA2
36.36% (8)
Heroes of Newerth
4.55% (1)
League of Legends

Total Votes: 22
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# 1ToRtUr3 Apr 17 2012, 14:16 PM
Yeh, might be smarter to post this in the DOTA2 section, but I decided to go with this section now.

Although IceFrog and Valve are doing a good job at DOTA2, I still see Heroes of Newerth having the best potential for a competitive scene. It includes more detail and strategy while variety doesn't differ much though imo.

Could this possibly be linked to DOTA2/LoL section somehow so that part of the community can argue aswell? I'm quite sure one or another has his 2 cents to add.

This post has been edited by ToRtUr3: Apr 17 2012, 14:21 PM

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# 2syllable Apr 17 2012, 15:01 PM
"Defender" >.<

Defense*

Anyways, imo it's still the original dota.

/edit: nvm I misread, didn't see the part where you typed "potential" but just read topic title tongue.gif

For potential it's hard to say. HoN will fall or stand with hontour, I really do hope that they pull trough because I like this game better than dota2. Dota2 has a better courier system, their trees and water look better, and that's about it for me. Hon has a better shopping system overall (secret shop removed to base, observatory), and more fun heroes to play, not counting the one hero invoker.

This post has been edited by syllable: Apr 17 2012, 15:05 PM

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# 3houseofdeath Apr 17 2012, 16:52 PM
QUOTE
Dota2 has a better courier system, their trees and water look better, and that's about it for me.


Big jokes.

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# 48x3QYlbPkD Apr 17 2012, 17:11 PM
dota 2 cuz not s2

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# 5Danelaan Apr 17 2012, 17:51 PM
Are we talking about "just the game", in the sense of "just the code / game you play etc." or are we looking at the whole thing, that is looking at the company running the game / the evolution of the game, etc.?

If we look at the whole thing, HoN is simply far behind every of the other in this poll. Straight fact: less competition, less money, smaller playerbase.

If we're just looking at the engine, the game itself, I'd still say that Dota 2 / LoL are probably superior. LoL because it's easy to understand and thus to look at; Dota 2 because the balance is just way better than HoN's balance - also because there's just more variety when it comes to drafts / strategies. Don't tell me otherwise, I've spent months checking every competitive replay in HoN, at the end of April, some friends watching a game with me on TS made me guess the bans and, guess what, I was almost always right...

Simple fact with balance, imho: the problem isn't that the heroes are very good or very bad - to make things simple, it's the difference between LoL and HoN or Dota 2, for example. The thing is "how much stronger are some heroes compared to the others and how many stronger heroes are there". For example, the problem with HoN is that there are a few heroes that are really superior to the others given the metagame and thus are constantly banned. Solution (still imho): buff other heroes so that the drafters have to trade strong heroes and the bans aren't a no brainer as they are atm. Other solution: adopt the drafting style of Dota 2, which means each team has to trade good heroes before the second banning phase.

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# 6ToRtUr3 Apr 17 2012, 18:10 PM
QUOTE(Danelaan @ Apr 17 2012, 19:51 PM) *

If we're just looking at the engine, the game itself, I'd still say that Dota 2 / LoL are probably superior. LoL because it's easy to understand

Talking about the competitive level, this doesn't really support your statement. Just because a game is easy to understand doesn't make it more competitive, rather easier accessible. HoN has more depth than LoL. I kinda figured that out after playing 3-4 games in LoL and already knew exactly what I had to do and what I had to pay attention to, while HoN still surprizes me about new stuff when I think I knew it already.

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# 7syllable Apr 17 2012, 18:15 PM
QUOTE(houseofdeath @ Apr 17 2012, 17:52 PM) *

Big jokes.

Not sure if I get what you mean with this elaborate post. Please do take into account that I wrote "that's about it for me" at the end of my post, so it's obviously personal opinion, not me forcing facts on anyone.

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# 8Danelaan Apr 17 2012, 18:24 PM
QUOTE(ToRtUr3 @ Apr 17 2012, 19:10 PM) *

Talking about the competitive level, this doesn't really support your statement. Just because a game is easy to understand doesn't make it more competitive, rather easier accessible. HoN has more depth than LoL. I kinda figured that out after playing 3-4 games in LoL and already knew exactly what I had to do and what I had to pay attention to, while HoN still surprizes me about new stuff when I think I knew it already.


Yeah, it's blatantly false. Because you "think" you have understood much of the game doesn't mean it's true. I don't like LoL but I've played quite a few games with some friends, and some friends that are playing competitively, and even though the "skill gap" between pubstars / competitive players is probably less huge than in DotA/Dota 2/HoN (not sure about HoN though, unknown pub-formed teams beating competitive teams is becoming quite current these days, cuz no one seems to give a damn) but it doesn't mean that the game is "easier". It's just more accessible and less frustrating to play as a newbie.

That being said, I don't understand what you mean when you talk about "most competitive". Do you mean the deepest game in terms of mechanics? The one who has the most potential competitively (which means, the greatest competitive circuit / the greatest number of teams / etc.)? I just don't get it.

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# 9ToRtUr3 Apr 18 2012, 00:58 AM
The game that has most place for competitiveness instead of pubstomps.

Like when it takes a certain amount of skill to become validated as an expert for a game. I believe chu saying that high-level LoL was much easier than high-level HoN, not 100% sure if true, but that's kind of what I mean.

I don't want to bring up this comparison, but it'll clarify my idea behind it. Take a Facebook flash rts game (I think there has been one) and compare it to idk starcraft. You'd probably never take any competitiveness in a Poorscripted Facebook game serious. While Starcraft on the other hand has professional sponsors who kind of employ top-notch players to represent them. You'd never see that happen on a Facebook game. Again, sorry for lame comparison but only thing that comes to my mind at 3am. tongue.gif

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# 10PlaTy Apr 18 2012, 02:24 AM
Change your name to Cruelshy

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# 11Hari Apr 18 2012, 07:56 AM
QUOTE(ToRtUr3 @ Apr 18 2012, 00:58 AM) *

The game that has most place for competitiveness instead of pubstomps.

Like when it takes a certain amount of skill to become validated as an expert for a game. I believe chu saying that high-level LoL was much easier than high-level HoN, not 100% sure if true, but that's kind of what I mean.

I don't want to bring up this comparison, but it'll clarify my idea behind it. Take a Facebook flash rts game (I think there has been one) and compare it to idk starcraft. You'd probably never take any competitiveness in a Poorscripted Facebook game serious. While Starcraft on the other hand has professional sponsors who kind of employ top-notch players to represent them. You'd never see that happen on a Facebook game. Again, sorry for lame comparison but only thing that comes to my mind at 3am. tongue.gif


If this is the case, then the most balanced game would be the most competitive: if the heroes are closely balanced, then you must rely entirely on skill to get ahead; if there are glaring imbalance you can simply play with the imbalanced heroes and have a natural advantage that requires less skill. Dota 2 is the most-balanced competitive MOBA, thus is must be the most competitive.

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# 12syllable Apr 18 2012, 13:45 PM
ZZZZ great my internet died as I posted. Anyway it basically said that in dota2 the same 10-15 heroes are picked and banned every single game, whie am / spec / weaver / faceless / morph / riki carries.

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# 13Hari Apr 18 2012, 14:16 PM
In a minute or two I was able to count more than 30 Dota 2 heroes that are picked regularly. Also, your claim that spec and weaver are picked as carries only demonstrates how truly out-of-touch you are with the Dota 2 competitive scene (well, there is one team that still plays spec, heh).

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# 14Kolaris Apr 18 2012, 15:33 PM
QUOTE(syllable @ Apr 18 2012, 06:45 AM) *

ZZZZ great my internet died as I posted. Anyway it basically said that in dota2 the same 10-15 heroes are picked and banned every single game, whie am / spec / weaver / faceless / morph / riki carries.


All-in push strategies without a carry are extremely common atm, the Dota2 meta is dominated by pushing.

Anyway, to test whether this is true, I put together a "Hero Tier List" identical to what Danelaan does every month for HoN. It's based on "The Defense" tournement which is a couple months old, but it had the most comprehensive data sample.

Tier 1 (80%+ Pick/Ban Rate):
HoN has 8 Heroes (8.2% of Pool)
DotA2 has 6 Heroes (9.5% of Pool)

Tier 2 (50-80% Pick/Ban Rate):
HoN has 6 Heroes (6.1% of Pool)
DotA2 has 6 Heroes (9.5% of Pool)

Tier 3 (15-50% Pick/Ban Rate):
HoN has 17 Heroes (17.3% of Pool)
Dota2 has 16 Heroes (25.4% of Pool)

Tier 4 (5-15% Pick/Ban Rate):
HoN has 17 Heroes (17.3% of Pool)
Dota2 has 16 Heroes (25.4% of Pool)

Tier 5 (0-5% Pick/Ban Rate):
HoN has 50 (53.1% of Pool)
DotA 2 has 19 (30.2% of Pool)

So really the pick/ban diversity is almost exactly the same in each game. The difference is obviously that HoN has a much larger pool, and most of that ends up being dead weight in competitive games. Whether the same will be true in DotA 2 as the pool expands, we'll see. It won't end up as large as HoN's current pool.


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# 15syllable Apr 18 2012, 15:41 PM
QUOTE(Hari @ Apr 18 2012, 15:16 PM) *

In a minute or two I was able to count more than 30 Dota 2 heroes that are picked regularly. Also, your claim that spec and weaver are picked as carries only demonstrates how truly out-of-touch you are with the Dota 2 competitive scene (well, there is one team that still plays spec, heh).

I admit it has been a while, but the most recent games I watched (this month) had those heroes in them, so mÍh.

This is partially because I fucking hate tobi shoutcasting and I'm too lazy to look for alternatives so I end up turning off the sound, but tobi also makes a habit out of missing half the important action. He's like the breaky of hon. I couldn't say which one knows less about the game that they're shoutcasting.

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# 16Hari Apr 18 2012, 17:47 PM
Okay, so your evidence has to do with a couple months old tournament. I invite you to go to gosugamers.net (http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/replays) and check just a few of the most recent games from pro teams (that would be the top 2 matches, then skip down to Quantic vs Fnatic and continue from there). In 10 or so matches, each of these heroes was picked or banned in multiple instances: ES, SK, Slardar, Beastmaster, Tide, Lycan, AM, Mirana, SF, Veno, Morph, VS, Riki, Brood, Lone Druid, CM, Storm, WR, Rhasta, Tinker, Enigma, QoP, Furion, Enchantress, Chen, Leshrac, Darkseer, Invoker, OD, SD. That's 30 heroes. Furthermore, each of these was picked or banned once: Tiny, NS, Naix, Razor, Clinkz, Lich, WD, Jakiro. Let's not even bother with what % that is of the whole hero pool comparatively to HoN, that's a variety of over 30 different heroes being used (30 of which were repeatedly used) in just a sample size of approximately 10 games.

Now I haven't watched competitive HoN for a long time (doesn't even exist anymore, right?), but I can safely say that when I did, I didn't even see 30 different heroes used in a sample size of 100 games.

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# 17ToRtUr3 Apr 19 2012, 18:59 PM
QUOTE(Hari @ Apr 18 2012, 19:47 PM) *

Now I haven't watched competitive HoN for a long time (doesn't even exist anymore, right?), but I can safely say that when I did, I didn't even see 30 different heroes used in a sample size of 100 games.

I think you are kind of misinformed about this. Competitive HoN just went back a bit due to the hype of DotA2 coming out and many teams moving over there. I think the HoN Tour will surely draw quite a few teams and good players back though.

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# 18kustodian Apr 19 2012, 23:51 PM
QUOTE(Danelaan @ Apr 17 2012, 18:51 PM) *
If we're just looking at the engine, the game itself, I'd still say that Dota 2 / LoL are probably superior.

If we are looking at the engine only, than HoN has by far the best engine for a competitive game. It has best replays, awesome spectators system, responsive net code, reconnect, concede. Other two games are still behind it if we only look at the game engine.

QUOTE(Danelaan @ Apr 17 2012, 18:51 PM) *
LoL because it's easy to understand and thus to look at;

This doesn't make the game more competitive or not. What makes a game competitive is even if it's easy to get into, the game needs to have enough dept so that better skill gives you an advantage. If the skill difference is high and the better player/team is winning by a small margin, that means the game has a problem and will never be competitive. Since LoL is an easier version of DotA, that automatically makes it less competitive, since you removed some part of the gameplay and with it depth and a potential skill differentiators.

QUOTE(Danelaan @ Apr 17 2012, 18:51 PM) *
Dota 2 because the balance is just way better than HoN's balance - also because there's just more variety when it comes to drafts / strategies. Don't tell me otherwise, I've spent months checking every competitive replay in HoN, at the end of April, some friends watching a game with me on TS made me guess the bans and, guess what, I was almost always right...

Simple fact with balance, imho: the problem isn't that the heroes are very good or very bad - to make things simple, it's the difference between LoL and HoN or Dota 2, for example. The thing is "how much stronger are some heroes compared to the others and how many stronger heroes are there". For example, the problem with HoN is that there are a few heroes that are really superior to the others given the metagame and thus are constantly banned. Solution (still imho): buff other heroes so that the drafters have to trade strong heroes and the bans aren't a no brainer as they are atm. Other solution: adopt the drafting style of Dota 2, which means each team has to trade good heroes before the second banning phase.

Can't argue about the rest, but this probably isn't a problem with HoN and it's competitiveness. The biggest problem is that S2 stopped supporting the competitive scene for about 6 or more months, which meant almost all the best players/teams just left to play other games, mostly Dota 2. HoN has never had more people playing the game than now, so we can hardly say that the game is dying, it's opposite, it has never been better. The problem is that the competitive scene is almost dead now, because S2 forgot about it, I just hope HoNTour and recently announced events will get it back on the right track. LoL is not doing any better in the competitive deperment also, but they have Riot which could probably buy S2 any day they won't, so they can easily pump millions into tourneys to keep the competitiveness going.

So looking at the whole picture Dota 2 is the winner, since they still have the hype, they know the direction which they are going and they have Valve which has a big paycheck to support the esports scene until it starts growing by itself.

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# 19ToRtUr3 Apr 20 2012, 11:56 AM
Well said Kusto. I agree to it completely. smile.gif

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# 20Danelaan Apr 20 2012, 12:07 PM
QUOTE

If we are looking at the engine only, than HoN has by far the best engine for a competitive game. It has best replays, awesome spectators system, responsive net code, reconnect, concede. Other two games are still behind it if we only look at the game engine.


I was more talking about the game from a gameplay point of view. I agree with what you said, and that's the main thing Valve should improve: their spec interface is really meh, the scoreboard from the HoN's spec interface is awesome (Riot copied it, why wouldn't Valve?); I don't know about concede in competitive play but yeah, a forfeit thingy is always useful.


QUOTE

This doesn't make the game more competitive or not. What makes a game competitive is even if it's easy to get into, the game needs to have enough dept so that better skill gives you an advantage. If the skill difference is high and the better player/team is winning by a small margin, that means the game has a problem and will never be competitive. Since LoL is an easier version of DotA, that automatically makes it less competitive, since you removed some part of the gameplay and with it depth and a potential skill differentiators.


I disagree, they have another advantage that comes from this "noob-friendly" aspect: it's way easier for them to have spectators, because they have a lot of players and it's easier to understand what happens in a competitive game for a LoL new player than for a HoN new player.

The thing is, Riot is sponsoring their tourneys by themselves and so is S2, while Valve is just sponsoring one tourney (The International) and a league (prodota2 league). The other leagues and tournaments are sponsored by other organizations, which is definitely a good sign.
Anyway, it's hard to predict the future: the recent announcements from S2 could be good, if they don't go "S2 mode" again after DHS.

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