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Duran, Magic and Breasts [Major spoilers!]

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# 21ThePhilospher Aug 11 2010, 14:23 PM
QUOTE
how does Mengsk know they're on Char, and worst of all, how does any of the 'rebellion' arc make sense if Mengsk is constantly monitoring Tychus -- if they could pull 'rebellion' off, why can't they free Tychus from the suit). And I suppose I have to forgo the idea of the Moebius Foundation using Tychus to kill Kerrigan so that the Xel'Naga plan isn't jeopardized by her.


Mengsk knows they're on Char because:
A. He sent a virtutal transmission to Valerian when the Dominion Fleet was in High orbit above Char, it would be easy to confirm the location of Valerian's Flag Ship.

B. I don't know if you did this but click on Horner after you completed the Engine of Destruction Mission(Odin). He will tell you that they ran a scan on Tychus's suit and found a sophistcated transponder in it. Now they both thought the MF is behind it, but in reality Arcturus is behind it(proven by the subtitle). So with the transponder finding out where the heck they were be a piece of cake.

Now on the "Why can't they free Tychus from the suit" part:

A. The Transponder according to Horner is capable of shutting down Tychus's major organs, so trying to remove the suit might trigger the Transponder and kill Tychus.

B. Horner and everyone else on the Ship hates Tychus, so much so that Raynor got a pat on the back for his kick-a** bar fight victory over Tychus. So I doubt they cared about Tychus' well being.


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# 22Naughtius Aug 17 2010, 16:20 PM
QUOTE(Sinister Grin @ Aug 8 2010, 01:31 AM) *
I think part of the reason they introduced him was to give some plausibility to a ground invasion of Char, but to me it still seems ridiculous. If half the Imperial fleet could do what Mengsk, the UED, and the Protoss fleet failed to do last game, then really the Zerg were never much of a threat after all. A small, covert strike force would have made much more sense for the lore: the Fellowship of the Ring, as opposed to the beaches of Normandy tongue.gif

I don't think they actually managed to do "what Mengsk, the UED, and the Protoss fleet failed to do last game". Most of the invading forces were eliminated, and the only reason a few survived was that Kerrigan called off the Zerg attack and brought all her little underlings to a single place. Also, I think "a small covert strike force" describes Raynor's plan very well, particularly in the Belly of the Beast.

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# 23asdf999 Aug 20 2010, 08:35 AM
the overmind was not ordered by the xel'naga to kill the protoss, it was taken control of by the dark voice entity.

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# 24ThePhilospher Aug 20 2010, 12:56 PM
QUOTE(asdf999 @ Aug 20 2010, 04:35 AM) *
the overmind was not ordered by the xel'naga to kill the protoss, it was taken control of by the dark voice entity.


The dark voice is a Xel'naga survivor though. Only that can explain his hybrid minions.

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# 25R Schneider Aug 20 2010, 17:13 PM
I admit that I've sort of lost track of what I want to achieve with this thread. Originally I had wanted to clarify some story points, but in the process I have gotten more and more irate with the poor storytelling of SC2 and spent more and more time on that. However, much of that debate can already be found elsewhere, and I put all the interesting links in the first topic. I also wrote a longer piece on the weaknesses of the storytelling for a different forum.

So, perhaps we can focus this topic only on reliable story information. Sensible guesses and speculation are OK, but let's keep wild fantasies and things that we simply don't know yet (but can expect to have resolved in the future) out of this topic.

I hadn't fully taken note of the that so-called 'dark voice' yet. SC2 throws a lot of supernatural mumbojumbo at us ('ancient prophecy', 'alient artifact', 'the void', 'dark voice'). The writers' choice to resort to such elements (seemingly not finding anything else worth telling in the regular universe of SC1) is being discussed elsewhere, too, e.g. in this very fine topic, along with long elaborations on plot holes and possible explanations for them. So let's stick to what we do know for sure, or at least to sensible guesses with justification for your guesses.

To start it off, could someone enlighten me as to where we first meet the 'dark voice' and what it is doing in the game?

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# 26ThePhilospher Aug 20 2010, 20:35 PM
You first saw the dark voice(a.k.a "the fallen one" in the prophecy) when the 3 protoss preservers interpret the prophecy, he is the one with the burning red eyes and nothing else. Then you hear a lot of trash talking from him in "In Utter Darkness" which he ends with an A-team rip-off final line "I love it when a plan comes together."

I think he presents what Zeratul calls "a Malevolent presence in the void that seeks to destory all of which we hold dear", the leader of the Xel Naga survivors and the master whom Duran serves

This post has been edited by ThePhilospher: Aug 20 2010, 20:38 PM

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# 27Sinister Grin Aug 21 2010, 00:12 AM
Yeah you have so much right there Schneider. I laugh now when i think back to Blizz telling us the story was too big for one game, haha. Good job picking that out.

I've been thinking, though. What exactly are Kerrigan's motivations as she is chasing the artifact? In the mission where you rescue Moebius' personnel, she says that she knows what the artifacts are, and that she's 'seen through your pathetic ruse' referring to Raynor and Dr. Narud together. It's my impression she knows Amil Narud and Samir Duran are the same person.

This just raises another question. What exactly are 'the artifacts'? Valerian's scientists say it will reverse Kerrigan's infestation, but according to lore they would have been created long before Humanity ever developed a civilization. What was their original purpose? And why does Narud want them?

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# 28ThePhilospher Aug 21 2010, 02:19 AM
QUOTE(Sinister Grin @ Aug 20 2010, 20:12 PM) *
Yeah you have so much right there Schneider. I laugh now when i think back to Blizz telling us the story was too big for one game, haha. Good job picking that out.

I've been thinking, though. What exactly are Kerrigan's motivations as she is chasing the artifact? In the mission where you rescue Moebius' personnel, she says that she knows what the artifacts are, and that she's 'seen through your pathetic ruse' referring to Raynor and Dr. Narud together. It's my impression she knows Amil Narud and Samir Duran are the same person.

This just raises another question. What exactly are 'the artifacts'? Valerian's scientists say it will reverse Kerrigan's infestation, but according to lore they would have been created long before Humanity ever developed a civilization. What was their original purpose? And why does Narud want them?


Well the aritfacts' original purpose to to exterminate zergs organisms, so it has nothing to do with humanity. Its purpose, like the Xel Naga temple at Shakuras is to incinerate all zerg (and maybe protoss too) whose DNA the Xel Naga maniputed in the first place so I am sure they know the weakness of these species. Kerrgian is a Infested Human, so under the effect of the artifiact, all of infested part of her will be incinerated and her human part will remain.

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# 29R Schneider Sep 5 2010, 09:29 AM
Here's something quite interesting and entertaining. Some of you are probably familiar with Mr Plinkett's reviews of Star Wars. Well, some guy is blatantly imitating Mr Plinket in his multi-part review of StarCraft II! Don't be put off by the overt imitation, though, he does make a lot of good points. There's great background info on the development process (apparently the director for the SC2 program is a former EA guy!), and Part 3 has a nice bit on why prophecies are problematic story telling devices. Have a look!

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# 30Haps Sep 15 2010, 21:54 PM
From how I understood it, it's not everyone who believes in prophecies, and even zeratul who apparently does to some extend said something along the lines of nothing being certain.

Anyways, does all this leave Raynor simply as a piece being used by mengsk and Valerian? Except for perhaps the very end?

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# 31R Schneider Sep 20 2010, 22:39 PM
QUOTE(Haps @ Sep 15 2010, 22:54 PM) *
From how I understood it, it's not everyone who believes in prophecies, and even zeratul who apparently does to some extend said something along the lines of nothing being certain.

Are you referring to the prophecy discussion in the video? Well, the problem with prophecies is not so much whether one character or another believes in them or not. The problem is whether prophecies are considered real within the world of the fiction. You see, a prophecy is inherently a fantasy device that does not exist in our real world. Actual prophecy, that is, a prediction about future events that one could not reasonably have derived from observation and experience, is pure magic. (To be clear here: A weather forecast is not prophecy, and saying that the west will bomb Iran in the next ten years isn't a prophecy, either -- it's just a guess based on past experiences and speculation, and it may or may not happen.)

So the massive problem that WoL introduces (for no reason! by the way) is that the fiction of SC1 was a realistic world of the future. People in them basically had a similar fundamental mindset as we do, and they approach problems, challenges and decisions the way we might, were we in their situation. We can relate to their problems because we are able to project ourselves into their world. This is a very different kind of immersion as you have in fantasy. Warcraft is immersive and well told, but the immersion is one of escapism into a different world in which portals can be conjured up at will, the dead can be reawakened, and you can generally do anything you like if you find the right magic spell.

But taking the developed world of StarCraft, which we have come to love for what it is (namely science fiction) and then telling us, "oh, sorry, actually we can do tons of magic - sorry for not bringing that up earlier", that's just a massive cold shower of disappointment. It's like if half-way through Terminator you'd learn that the robots are only angry because Princess Peach has been kidnapped, and if you can rescue her, everything will be fluffy-bunny happy. Or if half-way through Star Trek Voyager you learnt that it wasn't really about space and the delta quadrant, but really about 19th century country-life England. It's not what has been established, it's not what we tuned in for, and it doesn't fit! I repeat: There is no room for magic in realistic fiction. It ruins everything.

On a meta note, prophecies are a damning indictment for any writer. It's the laziest way of writing. Rather than creating a situation that is actually and inherently interesting, a prophecy is a cop-out way of instilling a motivation into an otherwise dead plot. Just think about it: With all we learnt in SC1/BW, really you are telling me that there isn't anything interesting that could happen to the characters, and that we really have to pull some boring-ass new villain (the Dark Voice) to get everyone to do something that's worth playing? (And anyway the mere concept of a 'villain' is infantile and boring -- people whose only motivation is to be evil for the sake of it are not interesting, and neither is fighting them.) So really, Blizzard, were you so much out of ideas that you had to give us this comic book crap?

But I wanted to elaborate a bit on the nature of prophecies. The guy in the video also mentions Dune as an example of badly placed prophecies. But I think he is wrong there: The prophecy in Dune is one that certain people in the story believe, but it is not taken as genuinely true and existent. The universe is very much a realistic one. In fact, it's said explicitly (in the book) that the prophecy was intentionally created on Dune by one certain group to provide protection for their own should one of them get stranded on the planet. This is in the same way that our own history is full of actions of Christians taken for the sake of their belief, yet talking about people's beliefs is not the same as ascertaining that those beliefs are in fact reality!

To take this even further, if a belief were indeed reality, it wouldn't be a belief any more! The night elves in Warcraft aren't religious; they know that their gods are there and they're in touch with them! None of the blue aliens in Avatar are spiritual at all, because they have nothing that they need to believe in -- everything is plain, overt reality. People do really have an afterlife, it's right there in the tree. The bond with nature is not a spiritual one, but a plain factual one -- every time they stick their little tingly bits into the animals' receptive bits, they're making the bond right there.

OK, that went on a bit. But I think that the choice to introduce a prophecy into StarCraft was so incredibly baffling and idiotic that it warrants a bit of talking about.

And now the good news: Part 4 of the video is out! Check it out for more on prophecies, and why SC1/BW didn't have one.

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# 32HyDra.OoV Sep 23 2010, 19:12 PM
QUOTE(R Schneider @ Aug 6 2010, 09:15 AM) *

Both the Protoss and the Zerg were failures for the XN: The Protoss turned against the XN and drove them off; the Zerg also overpowered their masters, severed their link to them, drove them away and killed a very large part of the XN race. (SC Manual)


If you read the original SC1 strategy guide It actually states that the XN abandoned the protoss not because of a violent nature, but because the XN believed them to be a failed creation. The reason for this IIRC was that the protoss had lost their communal psionic link after the xel naga attempt to differentiate the tribes, and due to this loss the XN decided to abandon their creation, which then caused the protoss to attack their gods. The zerg however did indeed turn against their masters, and destroyed many XN vessels in orbit on char before they abandoned their second creation.

This post has been edited by HyDra.OoV: Sep 23 2010, 19:29 PM

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# 33R Schneider Sep 23 2010, 20:54 PM
QUOTE(HyDra.OoV @ Sep 23 2010, 20:12 PM) *
The zerg however did indeed turn against their masters, and destroyed many XN vessels in orbit on char before they abandoned their second creation.

Char was a Terran colony. The XN made the Zerg on the planet Zerus. The swarm only settled on Char when it decided to engage the humans before being on its way to the Protoss (though it wasn't sure of the precise location of the Protoss homeworld). I think that's all in the SC manual... yeah, all that backstory was pretty nice and made sense. By the way, have you checked out Part IV of the YouTube review?

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# 34asdf999 Sep 25 2010, 06:31 AM
QUOTE(R Schneider @ Sep 20 2010, 14:39 PM) *

Are you referring to the prophecy discussion in the video? Well, the problem with prophecies is not so much whether one character or another believes in them or not. The problem is whether prophecies are considered real within the world of the fiction. You see, a prophecy is inherently a fantasy device that does not exist in our real world. Actual prophecy, that is, a prediction about future events that one could not reasonably have derived from observation and experience, is pure magic. (To be clear here: A weather forecast is not prophecy, and saying that the west will bomb Iran in the next ten years isn't a prophecy, either -- it's just a guess based on past experiences and speculation, and it may or may not happen.)

So the massive problem that WoL introduces (for no reason! by the way) is that the fiction of SC1 was a realistic world of the future. People in them basically had a similar fundamental mindset as we do, and they approach problems, challenges and decisions the way we might, were we in their situation. We can relate to their problems because we are able to project ourselves into their world. This is a very different kind of immersion as you have in fantasy. Warcraft is immersive and well told, but the immersion is one of escapism into a different world in which portals can be conjured up at will, the dead can be reawakened, and you can generally do anything you like if you find the right magic spell.

But taking the developed world of StarCraft, which we have come to love for what it is (namely science fiction) and then telling us, "oh, sorry, actually we can do tons of magic - sorry for not bringing that up earlier", that's just a massive cold shower of disappointment. It's like if half-way through Terminator you'd learn that the robots are only angry because Princess Peach has been kidnapped, and if you can rescue her, everything will be fluffy-bunny happy. Or if half-way through Star Trek Voyager you learnt that it wasn't really about space and the delta quadrant, but really about 19th century country-life England. It's not what has been established, it's not what we tuned in for, and it doesn't fit! I repeat: There is no room for magic in realistic fiction. It ruins everything.

On a meta note, prophecies are a damning indictment for any writer. It's the laziest way of writing. Rather than creating a situation that is actually and inherently interesting, a prophecy is a cop-out way of instilling a motivation into an otherwise dead plot. Just think about it: With all we learnt in SC1/BW, really you are telling me that there isn't anything interesting that could happen to the characters, and that we really have to pull some boring-ass new villain (the Dark Voice) to get everyone to do something that's worth playing? (And anyway the mere concept of a 'villain' is infantile and boring -- people whose only motivation is to be evil for the sake of it are not interesting, and neither is fighting them.) So really, Blizzard, were you so much out of ideas that you had to give us this comic book crap?

But I wanted to elaborate a bit on the nature of prophecies. The guy in the video also mentions Dune as an example of badly placed prophecies. But I think he is wrong there: The prophecy in Dune is one that certain people in the story believe, but it is not taken as genuinely true and existent. The universe is very much a realistic one. In fact, it's said explicitly (in the book) that the prophecy was intentionally created on Dune by one certain group to provide protection for their own should one of them get stranded on the planet. This is in the same way that our own history is full of actions of Christians taken for the sake of their belief, yet talking about people's beliefs is not the same as ascertaining that those beliefs are in fact reality!

To take this even further, if a belief were indeed reality, it wouldn't be a belief any more! The night elves in Warcraft aren't religious; they know that their gods are there and they're in touch with them! None of the blue aliens in Avatar are spiritual at all, because they have nothing that they need to believe in -- everything is plain, overt reality. People do really have an afterlife, it's right there in the tree. The bond with nature is not a spiritual one, but a plain factual one -- every time they stick their little tingly bits into the animals' receptive bits, they're making the bond right there.

OK, that went on a bit. But I think that the choice to introduce a prophecy into StarCraft was so incredibly baffling and idiotic that it warrants a bit of talking about.

And now the good news: Part 4 of the video is out! Check it out for more on prophecies, and why SC1/BW didn't have one.

i agree

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