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The Counter Strategy Topic for the US Aimstrong strat

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# 41madner Nov 28 2012, 12:46 PM
Nobody claimed it is a silver bullet. The question is just if two people of same skill fight, will that strategy help the US player or not.

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# 42jBrereton Nov 28 2012, 13:20 PM
And it will, for reasons I explained.

The old 4 rifle into M8 build is incredibly fuel inefficient when you're talking about timing pushes. The supply yard and motor pool alone put the Americans on less than fuel parity compared to Tx/4/ATHT. That first M8 costs 140 fuel in total. Unless the Americans have genuinely dominated the early game, this is going to cause serious problems, especially if there's a later transition into TD when Motorpool has proven a bit crap. That first TD unit is going to cost 145+ fuel, so you're hitting 300 without any rifle upgrades, triages etc.

On the other hand, a PE player who senses a TD play and is going for a solid AT build (so Schrecks and T3/4 with the upgrade) is going to have to spend, what, 55 fuel on T2 + Schrecks, plus 75 munitions, or buying an expensive squad with manpower, plus 115 fuel (110? 120? I forget, but that's the ballpark) in total for a Marder, or a little less for a Hotchkiss, plus the denial or delay of any T3/4 'base' units or tech.

You're creeping up to 200 fuel, which is pretty much on par with the first M18.

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# 43MizMaBeat Nov 28 2012, 13:23 PM
QUOTE(TheEldarPlayer @ Nov 28 2012, 09:36 AM) *

You really got mislead some what here...First this Start is very effective for the likes of Aimstrong and Inverse and other top players,any US at levels of 10-15/16 will fail,because this strategy is all about keep assaulting with flammes and 4 rifles supported by traige.But dude,this is not the concept what counters what,if any Elite Meta builds pops out and you see top players owning everybody with it.Dont forget to mention that this worked so fine because of THEIR EXPERIENCE and SkILLS....the strategy is not the magic its not the hit the autobutton for a victory.For instance if I play Aimstrong he might kill me with this strategy in the first 20 minutes,while a lower skilled US player might finish me later at 35minutes or not at all......so the point is not this magical(hit the button for the Auto-win)strategy but,the people who utilizes it


I don't agree with You. I'm lvl 9 as Amis and been using this strat against PE with little to no effort. I only got outplayed 2 times and I think I must have played at least 12 games using Bulletproof. Most of the games ended before I even had to get TD, so yeah, using Your definition - this strat IS a joke.
Of course lower lvl players might do something crazy, pros would never done. For example spam flakvierlings or something, but it won't keep You from winning, just delay it a bit.
True it requires good micro/macro abilities, hence it needs a little bit of training, but its' difficulty on pulling off is on par with successful stalling to m8s and microing 2 m8s IMO.

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# 44madner Nov 28 2012, 15:01 PM
I would argue that the strategy is stronger on lower levels, as the PE player needs to micro more then the opponent.

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# 45GiveMeABreak Jan 29 2013, 11:47 AM

Ive been thinking about this, and Im going to go with:

3x SC start.

Fast AC, if it looks like bullet proof I'll get 3.

Possibly get a Vamp if theres a good spot for it (it pays for itself as long as your not already too far behind)

Possibly get a Muni HT for mines... (not sure about this, but it would be nice vs bullet proof to mine your cutoff and fuel), SC will avoid rifles and cap/harrass, but if they hit a mine, SC can all pounce on them and force a retreat.

Go Luft for the LFG repair

Sneak a cloaked Ketten into his base for intel.

If he build tank depot (ala Bullet Proof), I'll just tec to marders.

If he builds a motor pool, I'll see that as biggest challenge, because I'll need T4 for ATHT, but then he'l just switch to ATG, so then i'll need T2 for MHT... so his one building will cause me to need to tec twice.


Also I will consider calling a fast Wibble, surely between 3 ACs and a wibble, bullet proof will suffer.

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# 46Ervin Rommel Jan 30 2013, 12:56 PM
4 man pg squads with g43s would rape this setup imho. keeping the pgs blobed up and constantly pushing his cutoff if u can.

Atht + hetzer and then later a marder if u can afford it. this AT setup can take on any allied TD unit. 4 man g43s will kill every infantry.

Basically what im trying to say is that this strat is made to counter the AC so why not just FUCK IT and dont make AC. use the second best thing. 4 man g43 squads. if he goes from rax to wsc.. rush a SC into his snipers face or tech to an AC and use the FUNK to scout the sniper.

The bulletproof strat is very effective against AC usage fair enough but what can it do againt Heavy T1 Pe play ?

Flamers cant do shit against g43s.

THE only trick here is to identify whethers its that strat or not. best bet is use the ketten to scout and read his unit composition.

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# 47jBrereton Jan 30 2013, 14:10 PM
QUOTE(Ervin Rommel @ Jan 30 2013, 12:56 PM) *

4 man pg squads with g43s would rape this setup imho. keeping the pgs blobed up and constantly pushing his cutoff if u can.

All well and good until the TD actually comes up / you get strafed to fuck. And keeping your PGs blobbed means you're only in one place. Basically the whole point of the Bulletproof strategy is just to evade PE other than when there's a massive weight of firepower advantage to keep enough resources in your control and generally deprive the PE player of vet (because a PE blob without at least Def 1 is just asking to get a Strafing Run, at which point you're probably talking huge casualties, possibly including entire PGren squads in one fell swoop).

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# 48LayYaOut Jan 31 2013, 11:37 AM
anyone been using Porygon 5 sc to Hotchkiss strat agains this? every time i come up agains this and im using this strat i win easy, i know its a strat that u have to really pick at the start but u could use bits out of its as its SC and Hotchkiss seem to work well agains it, stickies are not that big a probem to me as if u lock them down they hold up to them pretty well and u have kettles to repair them and it waste there ammo.

and while everytime i use this strat and bring out the Hotchkiss they allway seem to start spaming airborune which is dumb as Hotchkiss really kick there ass they snipe them almost every shot and if u wait till after they have charge and are then slowed u can drop Hotchkiss Stuka on them and they dont take much pop cap.

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# 49GiveMeABreak Feb 6 2013, 09:18 AM
Layyaout,

I was just comming on here to say what success I have been having with Scout Cars as well. Upgrade them all and defend the territory you want, only harras with 2 kettens to keep him busy.


A mass of rifles have a hard time against even 2-3 lock down scout cars due to the extra health, and more importantly added suppresion on the MG.

Quickly call in LGF to repair SCs, and if your getting a lot of heat from the american throw down a Flakvierling.

Only a few mins in my initial PG will retreat and build T4, and rush straight for P4. This strat doesnt use much munitions, and esspecially if you lock down a high muni, the P4's will be fully upgraded.


From watching my replays, quite a few americans sensibly get early stickies for the scout cars, which do take out a few, but do to the fact im not trying to be mobile and also the added health from locking down, this wastes a lot of munitrions on easily reproduced SC.

If im struggling this is where a Flak goes down, the only counter bullet proof has, is a huge flank, which when done loses the america a LOT of manpower, around the time he might capture it the P4 pops out and kills it in one shot on its way to his base.

Ussually the only counter USA have at this point (in my experience), is airbourne, but they seem to spend most of their ammo on stickies, and dont have much room for RRs.

After the 1st P4 mauls the rifles in base, I ussually reverse it to waiting LFG for full repair and attack again with the 2nd P4.

Kettens are harrasing the whole time, and as soon as he gets in trouble, scout cars unlock and go cap the whole map, chase of engies quickly.


I will keep practising this, and see how well it fares. I can see the hotch version being safer against better opponents because naturally it counters armour. But at the moment Im having no drama just denying them armour.


Americans love to go infantry heavy and just pressure you off the field, not allow you to get P4s in time, but with defensive scout cars, LFG and Flaks, it is much harder for them to push, and also YOU are picking where he MUST attack you. I like the timming of the flak, because its about 2 mins before P4, so you are occupying him to come out with a counter to that, when really the P4 is the actual threat.

Side note, 1st P4 takes 110 fuel to get to I think (not counting Logistiks Kompanie 20 fuel).

With Stickies, supply yard, tank depot, and say an M10.. thats 220 fuel!

So easy to have enough fuel when locking down a fuel point, ussually a high muni next to it, and on maps like Langres, I have a second high fuel in contention and also harrass theirs. Thanks to scout cars, you can lock them down at edges of sectors so they bunch up to form one single defensive position. Ussually have my cut off locked down as well.


This post has been edited by GiveMeABreak: Feb 6 2013, 09:26 AM

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# 50jBrereton Feb 6 2013, 11:32 AM
The first P4 takes:

20 fuel for the T1/2 building (T1 in your case)
30 fuel for the T4 building
60 fuel for the Support Kommand upgrade
60 fuel for the P4

Or 170 fuel, which is a bit more than 110, to say the least.



For comparison's sake, the lowest fuel cost you're going to see a TD from a "by the book" Aimstrong player is:

15 for the Rax
35 for the Stickies
20 for the Triage
50 for the Supply Yard
90 for the Tank Depot
55 for the Tank Destroyer

Or 265 fuel, not 220.



It's important to actually know these things.

This post has been edited by jBrereton: Feb 6 2013, 11:36 AM

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# 51flyingtiger Feb 6 2013, 20:07 PM
QUOTE(jBrereton @ Feb 6 2013, 11:32 AM) *

The first P4 takes:

20 fuel for the T1/2 building (T1 in your case)
30 fuel for the T4 building
60 fuel for the Support Kommand upgrade
60 fuel for the P4

Or 170 fuel, which is a bit more than 110, to say the least.
For comparison's sake, the lowest fuel cost you're going to see a TD from a "by the book" Aimstrong player is:

15 for the Rax
35 for the Stickies
20 for the Triage
50 for the Supply Yard
90 for the Tank Depot
55 for the Tank Destroyer

Or 265 fuel, not 220.
It's important to actually know these things.

The first M10/M18 cost 255 fuel, not 265 (it's only 25 fuel for the stickies) happy.gif .

And when the game start you already have 20 fuel as PE or 15 fuel as US, so actually it is 150 fuel (for PE) and 240 fuel (for US).

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# 52GiveMeABreak Feb 6 2013, 21:32 PM
Thanks for correcting me on the fuel, I was only roughly guessing. I actually thought the T4 upgrade was only 20 fuel for some reason, your right, it is 60.

But the main point remains, that it is significantly quicker to rush to a P4 than it is tank depot.


A good american player will adapt and rush out an M8 to counter the scout cars, where an ATHT can be made, but this also buys him time to get the important 57.

A lot of the time this strat comes down to weather he can position his rushed anti tank guns to kill the early P4's.

But if they stick hard to bulletproof, they should suffer... throwing blobs of infantry against locked scout cars costs him, and your only holding out to punish his none tecking.

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# 53flyingtiger Feb 6 2013, 21:42 PM
How about some Jeeps then?

And when you have the Panzer 4, he can also has enough CPs to make airborne with RRs.

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# 54jBrereton Feb 6 2013, 21:50 PM
QUOTE(GiveMeABreak @ Feb 6 2013, 21:32 PM) *
A good american player will adapt and rush out an M8 to counter the scout cars, where an ATHT can be made, but this also buys him time to get the important 57.

I'd think a better US player would keep on trucking and clump his infantry to push where he could. One or two ACs can be bullied by a nasty rifle blob, not like SCs are in a better position by any means. Motor Pool really is the weaker choice against PE, just because it's 520 (IIRC) manpower, realistically 50/100 munitions, and 75 fuel for the first M8 (assuming there's already a Supply Yard), which is more expensive than T4 and an ATHT.

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# 55jBrereton Feb 6 2013, 21:51 PM
QUOTE(flyingtiger @ Feb 6 2013, 20:07 PM) *

The first M10/M18 cost 255 fuel, not 265 (it's only 25 fuel for the stickies) happy.gif .

Quite right. Mixed up the fuel and munis due to blargh.
QUOTE
And when the game start you already have 20 fuel as PE or 15 fuel as US, so actually it is 150 fuel (for PE) and 240 fuel (for US).

Still worth totting up the full cost imo.

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# 56GiveMeABreak Feb 7 2013, 15:46 PM
QUOTE(flyingtiger @ Feb 6 2013, 22:42 PM) *

How about some Jeeps then?

And when you have the Panzer 4, he can also has enough CPs to make airborne with RRs.


I dont know about jeeps, but Ive rarley faced jeep spam. Yeah he can get airborne, but munis are scarce for american using bullet proof and who wants to throw a few stickies around.

If they can get their airborne and AT gun to work well together, you might be toast. But equally the P4 can destroy them.



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# 57GiveMeABreak Feb 7 2013, 16:01 PM

jBereton:

Yes many usa players will stick hard to the inf blob, but locked down scout cars have more health than AC and they dish out suppression, so when you have 4-5 blobbed together, locked down, inf gets suppressed really quite quickly when it gets close.

Another bonus I have found, at least at my level is that many players will throw a sticky on a SC once its around 30% health left to try finish it off, but when locked down, this isnt enough.. so often the SC will be able to get fully healed by the LGF.

I may run into a brick wall with this when I play players around level 16... but for now its working.


Does anyone have any replays of the hotch spam version? How do you hold territory? I cant see where the AI power comes from.

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# 58YankeePanzer Feb 23 2013, 01:48 AM
If you happen to be on Semois, AC and G43 spam works well along with spamming teller mines to negate any armor.

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# 59lifelike Feb 28 2013, 16:31 PM
Some of you have put their votes to T3 AC/marders, while others T4 ATHT w/ PIV or Hotch. Both seems pretty good if you see the fuel comparison, but I dunno how these really perform in real matches. I'd love to seem them both work, could you pls upload some rec?


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# 60jBrereton Mar 1 2013, 17:25 PM
Why don't you give it a try yourself and find out what suits you?

Marders are kinda gash at everything other than fighting vehicles (and really need a level of Offensive vet to be good at fighting TD units), whereas upgunned Hotches are quite good at plinking infantry. But they do cost a significant amount of munitions to become effective, especially if you also want the Stuka upgrade.

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