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*Balanced* Defcon map, not so balanced

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# 1scuba Nov 11 2019, 14:32 PM
Short video on the problem with this new map here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewu8wvuz1bA

The issue was to address the lack of space for the middle spots, but as you can see it is not really any better.

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# 2~JoKeR~ Nov 11 2019, 14:39 PM
QUOTE(scuba @ Nov 11 2019, 19:32 PM) *

Short video on the problem with this new map here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewu8wvuz1bA

The issue was to address the lack of space for the middle spots, but as you can see it is not really any better.

+1 This balanced map wasnt tested correctly i can point out a few more flaws

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# 3Leikeze Nov 11 2019, 14:54 PM
Thanks for pointing this out.

The map has not been properly tested to discover all possible flaws, which is why the creator asked so many times for feedback, which he never got.
QUOTE(~JoKeR~ @ Nov 11 2019, 09:39 AM) *

+1 This balanced map wasnt tested correctly i can point out a few more flaws

So please point those out.

Saying that you can point them out helps nobody if you don't actually point them out for the creator of the map to take into consideration.

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# 4~JoKeR~ Nov 11 2019, 14:58 PM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ Nov 11 2019, 19:54 PM) *



So please point those out.

Saying that you can point them out helps nobody if you don't actually point them out for the creator of the map to take into consideration.

Okay i will

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# 5Leikeze Nov 11 2019, 15:05 PM
Good.

Make sure to @Mp3, for what it's work, as he made the map.

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# 6Jundiyy Nov 11 2019, 15:33 PM
@Scuba,
Not talking about any balance issues, I just downloaded the map now.
The border is in the correct position, as it should be.

In the original Defcon, you couldn't build in the black area at the bottom, only the North side for all bases were able to build there. (Due to the border in WB.)

Regarding the building space being blocked, that isn't the mappers fault, all maps have that restriction, you can't build too close to the edge of any map unless you change the border.
In the new version, it probably looks worse since you originally could build there. I also removed that in my version I made quite some time ago.

Regarding base sizes, in the new map the top right and left are already bigger than the bottom right and left. If you look at the original, withthe extra black space they would be even bigger. Middle spaces look somewhat similar now.

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# 7Specovik Nov 11 2019, 19:37 PM
But why this bug working only in oryginal defcon, and only defcon? magic border? Maybee it did some object?

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# 8Mp3 Nov 11 2019, 22:31 PM
y0 Scuba (the KING).
Originally , yes , you were able to build in the dark zone on the Top spot , but never on the bottom one.
If the majority of the players want to bring back this questionable "feature" onto the map , no problem . I though it was indeed a bug that been left behind by EA.
QUOTE(Jundiyy @ Nov 11 2019, 10:33 AM) *

@Scuba,
Not talking about any balance issues, I just downloaded the map now.
The border is in the correct position, as it should be.

In the original Defcon, you couldn't build in the black area at the bottom, only the North side for [b]all bases were able to build there. (Due to the border in WB.)[/b]

Regarding the building space being blocked, that isn't the mappers fault, all maps have that restriction, you can't build too close to the edge of any map unless you change the border.
In the new version, it probably looks worse since you originally could build there. I also removed that in my version I made quite some time ago.

Regarding base sizes, in the new map the top right and left are already bigger than the bottom right and left. If you look at the original, withthe extra black space they would be even bigger. Middle spaces look somewhat similar now.

YES , you're absolutely right here mate!
I've haven't change the sides of each island (expect the dark zone ofc).
My fixes were mainly
  • Flattened middle
  • More space around the additional resources
  • Fixing texturing issues left from original defcon.
QUOTE(Leikeze @ Nov 11 2019, 09:54 AM) *

The map has not been properly tested to discover all possible flaws, which is why the creator asked so many times for feedback, which he never got.

THIS
Nobody ,besides Jarmen; Wildhide and you Leikeze, have said anything on what the balanced version was lacking sad.gif
All of the features that have been added/fixed on this map was Specovik's and my initiative .
The only testing that have been done was mainly by myself with 6x AI's.
QUOTE(~JoKeR~ @ Nov 11 2019, 09:39 AM) *

+1 This balanced map wasnt tested correctly i can point out a few more flaws

If you see a mistake on this map , please say it here or PM me!
I'm open for applying the feedback but I do require additional testing from the community!
QUOTE(Specovik @ Nov 11 2019, 14:37 PM) *

But why this bug working only in original defcon, and only defcon? magic border? Maybee it did some object?

EA have done some weird "stuff" , while making this map.

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# 9scuba Nov 12 2019, 02:56 AM
In my video I clearly show there is alot of space that is not *black area* that cant be built in.

Yes on original defcon you could build in that area, but now there is even green terrain which is unbuildable.

I was in an FFA playing this map for only the first time, and had USA top spot, I had almost no space to build SDZs in my base and had to expand to middle just to have space.

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# 10Jundiyy Nov 12 2019, 03:57 AM
QUOTE(scuba @ Nov 12 2019, 02:56 AM) *

Yes on original defcon you could build in that area, but now there is even green terrain which is unbuildable.


Correct, as I said, with the correct map border, this is what happens, test any other map. The 'coloured' terrain is unbuildable at the edges of the map.
The border can be changed but only for the north side and the east side. Unfortunately this is ZH mapping for you.

For defcon, the top border could be moved back up but then the bottom base would become the worst, I suppose a possible fix would be to add room to both bases. Easiest would be at the middle entrances but won't work well. Best would be to widen the sides, but that would mean to remove some land from the sides of the corner bases.

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# 11scuba Nov 12 2019, 05:42 AM
Surely the way to balance this map appropriately, would be to simply make the corner spots 'thinner' and widen the middle spots, dont mess with borders and dont mess with supply placements or shape of entrances.

The map ONLY issue I have even seen with this map is that the middle spots are too small. The rest of it is fine isnt it?

Not sure why the entrances of each base were changed so much and the supply placements edited?

This isn't to say that I dont like the map, just think it's got a completely different feel to it.

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# 12Jundiyy Nov 12 2019, 07:26 AM
Yes that could be the way to do it, cut away from the corner bases and give that to the middle bases.

Defcon seems to have originally been made for 3v3 only, so of course for this reason the map is well made apart from the border mistake and also the extra supply pile in the middle behind the refinery.

Seems like it because the 2 middle bases would then be fair since both teams would have 1 small base and secondly, the small supply piles between the bases, 2 places have 5 piles whilst the other 4 have 3.
This allows a 3v3 with the players lined up in any base and it would stay fair.

Anyway, Mp3, I think you could it with ease, if you plan to then GL.

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# 13`Legionnaire Nov 12 2019, 08:34 AM
After playing this map for a total of at least 5 hours, it's feedback time! biggrin.gif

As Defcon is already quite balanced for 3v3, I'm looking at this with the eyes of an FFA or 2v2v2 standpoint. I'll start with the good, and then the bad. I will only go into details about the bad stuff.

The good (in no particular order):
  • Texturing
  • No cars
  • Oil civilian building placement
  • Middle supplies
  • Slight increase in middle island sizes
  • The extra space in the trenches (where the small supply piles are)

The bad (in no particular order):
  • 4 Small supply piles between players
  • Buildable space is wasted by ramps
  • Corner islands still huge
  • Chain-linked fences prevent oil capture in some instances
  • Flattened middle

As it currently stands, I do prefer it over regular Defcon, but not by much. If 'the bad' is addressed, I would play it more frequently. Now I'm going to dive a little further into why I think those things are bad, and what potential solution(s) can be used.

___________________________________________________


4 Small supply piles between players

There used to be 3 small supply piles between players, except the middle left and middle right sections. This used to be enough incentive to build a Supply Stash / Supply Center. Now, since you get 4 piles on both sides of your base, which to me it feels like a lot of money. The supply piles are also easier to secure now, so combining that with an extra pile feels like a little too much extra cash. Again, this is not a major issue and I'd like to hear other FFA players' opinion on this.

I personally would prefer it going back to 3 piles to make it feel more like Defcon and less like a new map.



Buildable space is wasted by ramps

I put on Wireframe to get a better idea of how much space the ramps are taking up. The red-shaded area is area where players can build (ignoring the oils as they can get destroyed).

IPB Image

Looking at the size of the Supply Dock it's clear that there isn't much space here. What scuba complained about was the fixing of the incorrectly placed map border allowing the top player to build on the black section of the border, allowing the player to have more space. THIS WAS A BUG. DO NOT RE-IMPLEMENT IT.

One solution is to decrease the amount of space taken up by the ramps. Right now the battle-ground area is at around 75 pts height, and the player bases are around 180 pts height. This is a huge difference. Why not set the player bases to have a height of 140 with the very edges of the cliffs going as high as 150? This means the ramp can be smaller to begin with. Also, the ramp now starts in the player base section. Let it start 50-50 outside the base. Probably by decreasing the player base height it won't cause interference with supply placement in the trench.



Corner islands still huge

Look at the difference in buildable space on this corner island vs the previous screenshot. I know which island I'd like to spawn in... xD

IPB Image

The corner islands used to have that nuclear bunker that sort of blocked some space... but it was destructible. To me, a more appropriate solution would be mountains (not water). Mountains can be traveled over by GLA bikes and air units. Water can be traveled over only by air units. That's why I prefer to use mountains when you want to 'block off' an area because it feels more fair to the GLA faction because they can still use bikes to travel over it.

IPB Image

This crude image is just to show the potential solution, I very roughly placed down these mountains.



Chain-linked fences prevent oil capture in some instances

Decoration should never get in the way of gameplay. Some of the oils can no longer be captured from any direction.

Either remove the fences or position the fences closer to the oils so the rangers can still capture through the fences. Either solution is fine.



Flattened middle

The middle in Defcon had a small height difference. This sometimes was enough to prevent long-distance Rocket Buggy attacks. Why was this flattened? I didn't see this as being a problem of Defcon. Making a change like this makes it a bit less like Defcon and more like a new map that was based on Defcon.

I would like to see this undone.

___________________________________________________


And that's my 2 cents, guys. smile.gif Hope the feedback is useful. My feedback is only feedback and I am not instructing the mappers to do anything, nor am I trying to diss their work. I very much respect the work that has gone into this and I hope this post was useful.

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# 14scuba Nov 12 2019, 09:15 AM
QUOTE(`Legionnaire @ Nov 12 2019, 09:34 AM) *

After playing this map for a total of at least 5 hours, it's feedback time! biggrin.gif

As Defcon is already quite balanced for 3v3, I'm looking at this with the eyes of an FFA or 2v2v2 standpoint. I'll start with the good, and then the bad. I will only go into details about the bad stuff.

The good (in no particular order):
  • Texturing
  • No cars
  • Oil civilian building placement
  • Middle supplies
  • Slight increase in middle island sizes
  • The extra space in the trenches (where the small supply piles are)

The bad (in no particular order):
  • 4 Small supply piles between players
  • Buildable space is wasted by ramps
  • Corner islands still huge
  • Chain-linked fences prevent oil capture in some instances
  • Flattened middle

As it currently stands, I do prefer it over regular Defcon, but not by much. If 'the bad' is addressed, I would play it more frequently. Now I'm going to dive a little further into why I think those things are bad, and what potential solution(s) can be used.

___________________________________________________


4 Small supply piles between players

There used to be 3 small supply piles between players, except the middle left and middle right sections. This used to be enough incentive to build a Supply Stash / Supply Center. Now, since you get 4 piles on both sides of your base, which to me it feels like a lot of money. The supply piles are also easier to secure now, so combining that with an extra pile feels like a little too much extra cash. Again, this is not a major issue and I'd like to hear other FFA players' opinion on this.

I personally would prefer it going back to 3 piles to make it feel more like Defcon and less like a new map.

Buildable space is wasted by ramps

I put on Wireframe to get a better idea of how much space the ramps are taking up. The red-shaded area is area where players can build (ignoring the oils as they can get destroyed).

IPB Image


Looking at the size of the Supply Dock it's clear that there isn't much space here. What scuba complained about was the fixing of the incorrectly placed map border allowing the top player to build on the black section of the border, allowing the player to have more space. THIS WAS A BUG. DO NOT RE-IMPLEMENT IT.

One solution is to decrease the amount of space taken up by the ramps. Right now the battle-ground area is at around 75 pts height, and the player bases are around 180 pts height. This is a huge difference. Why not set the player bases to have a height of 140 with the very edges of the cliffs going as high as 150? This means the ramp can be smaller to begin with. Also, the ramp now starts in the player base section. Let it start 50-50 outside the base. Probably by decreasing the player base height it won't cause interference with supply placement in the trench.

Corner islands still huge

Look at the difference in buildable space on this corner island vs the previous screenshot. I know which island I'd like to spawn in... xD

IPB Image


The corner islands used to have that nuclear bunker that sort of blocked some space... but it was destructible. To me, a more appropriate solution would be mountains (not water). Mountains can be traveled over by GLA bikes and air units. Water can be traveled over only by air units. That's why I prefer to use mountains when you want to 'block off' an area because it feels more fair to the GLA faction because they can still use bikes to travel over it.

IPB Image


This crude image is just to show the potential solution, I very roughly placed down these mountains.

Chain-linked fences prevent oil capture in some instances

Decoration should never get in the way of gameplay. Some of the oils can no longer be captured from any direction.

Either remove the fences or position the fences closer to the oils so the rangers can still capture through the fences. Either solution is fine.

Flattened middle

The middle in Defcon had a small height difference. This sometimes was enough to prevent long-distance Rocket Buggy attacks. Why was this flattened? I didn't see this as being a problem of Defcon. Making a change like this makes it a bit less like Defcon and more like a new map that was based on Defcon.

I would like to see this undone.

___________________________________________________


And that's my 2 cents, guys. smile.gif Hope the feedback is useful. My feedback is only feedback and I am not instructing the mappers to do anything, nor am I trying to diss their work. I very much respect the work that has gone into this and I hope this post was useful.


Pretty much agree with all points.

The only thing is, people seem to keep saying my issue is with the lack of 'black-buildable' area, whereas this is not the issue i raised. If you watch the video you can clearly see there is a HUGE amount of space that is not buildable, below the black border.


See here, original Defcon;

Attached Image
Attached Image

And now, the ' balanced' version;

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

As you can see the border of the base is much lower than the 'black area'.

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# 15xezon Nov 12 2019, 10:32 AM
Nice feedback. Maybe increase the border so players can build until the black space in all corners?

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# 16Jundiyy Nov 12 2019, 10:57 AM
QUOTE(xezon @ Nov 12 2019, 10:32 AM) *

Nice feedback. Maybe increase the border so players can build until the black space in all corners?


Not possible, as I've said above already.
Only the north and east sides can have this, the south and west sides can't be changed.

And the black space thing, as I've said, it's in every map that uses the original border, if you set the border on the 'black' area, none of the maps will allow you to build too close. They will block away some of the buildable land. Just how the game is made unfortunately. If you try to move the border into the 'black' area, it causes problems for the south and west side, since they won't get the extra space.

A very small solution combined with Legionnaire'a would be, make the map a bit bigger in the north and south, then make the mountains in the corner bases.

Nice feedback Legi thumb.gif

This post has been edited by Jundiyy: Nov 12 2019, 11:00 AM

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# 17Specovik Nov 12 2019, 12:12 PM
I want to note that the fences around the oil's were set precisely to prevent their capture from all sides, which, in my opinion, needed to be fixed - to counter the enemy at the beginning of the game.

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# 18`Legionnaire Nov 12 2019, 13:18 PM
QUOTE(Specovik @ Nov 12 2019, 13:12 PM) *

needed to be fixed


How was it broken/imbalanced? Could you give an example?

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# 19FireLorD` Nov 12 2019, 15:13 PM
I really dislike the ramps and is it possible to just make all 6 islands the same size?

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# 20Specovik Nov 12 2019, 19:22 PM
QUOTE(`Legionnaire @ Nov 12 2019, 16:18 PM) *

How was it broken/imbalanced? Could you give an example?

well, it depends on the situation. infantry drop from the back of the oils, or they try to sneak in from behind, or apture oils right during the attack. There are times when the fate of the defending player depends on this. it is not a matter of imbalance, but rather just a little help to the player against whom aggression is being waged. in the end, from side base of the rightful owner of these oils, there are no obstacles, so there is no problem for him.

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