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[Map Balance] [Tournament City]

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# 1HanDofDooM^ Nov 17 2019, 16:49 PM
So I was checking some of the [rank] [nmc] maps that aren't played much, and I stumbled upon Tournament City. As you can see below, you cannot build next to your side supplies. Now that does not matter much for USA, because you're never sticking your supply center to your supplies, but as China and GLA, it is the opposite. That distance between the supplies and the supply center will result in a much lower cash/minute, aka USA has an advantage on this map.

I wonder who was behind this map design. Does not look too balanced to me, but then again I might be wrong. Enlighten me fellas!

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# 2-ExiLe` Nov 17 2019, 17:23 PM
QUOTE(HanDofDooM^ @ Nov 17 2019, 18:49 PM) *

So I was checking some of the [rank] [nmc] maps that aren't played much, and I stumbled upon Tournament City. As you can see below, you cannot build next to your side supplies. Now that does not matter much for USA, because you're never sticking your supply center to your supplies, but as China and GLA, it is the opposite. That distance between the supplies and the supply center will result in a much lower cash/minute, aka USA has an advantage on this map.

I wonder who was behind this map design. Does not look too balanced to me, but then again I might be wrong. Enlighten me fellas!

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yea it's bad, but probably how it was in the original version (cnc3?), should be changed to v2 tho!

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# 3ReLaX Nov 17 2019, 17:24 PM
Of course this is for USA only.
Depends on what the mapper wants to do it coulde be right.
Some mapper which are not playing can also do some mistakes...

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# 4Mp3 Nov 17 2019, 17:26 PM
This moment has been bugging me as well , but considering that the creator of this map was aiming in a total zh adaptation of cnc3 map (with the same exact resource positioning and I think the name as well) , I would say it was intentional rather then someone forgetting in moving the supply crates.
Still , this part of the map could require a change to this detail , since its indeed quite hard to gather those with China & GLA.

Btw. Almost all of the NMC maps were made by the same guy , that's now pushing the idea of a fan-made Generals 2 continuation in a different topic wink.gif

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# 5ReLaX Nov 17 2019, 17:29 PM
Is the NMC guy around here on GR btw?

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# 6Mp3 Nov 17 2019, 17:32 PM
QUOTE(ReLaX @ Nov 17 2019, 12:29 PM) *

Is the NMC guy around here on GR btw?

He's active in this thread - Generals Global War
And here's his profile - AIRZ

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# 7Jundiyy Nov 17 2019, 17:34 PM
Yes he is, https://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...&p=10241830

And yea that has always been like that. USA has the advantage.

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# 8Leikeze Nov 17 2019, 17:55 PM
The NMC maps are mirrored top to bottom, left to right, so mirrors work best on them, or at least the same armies.

USA vs GLA/China on this map is not really a particularly big issue, as the USA player cannot safely collect from the middle unsafe, and is easily harassed at the upper-unsafe.

What is good to keep in mind when looking over maps is the actual in-game affect we see brought about by these design choices, which can only be learned through practice.

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# 9HanDofDooM^ Nov 18 2019, 10:03 AM
QUOTE(ReLaX @ Nov 17 2019, 20:24 PM) *

Of course this is for USA only.
Depends on what the mapper wants to do it coulde be right.
Some mapper which are not playing can also do some mistakes...


If we are going to make maps in the mindset of making it balanced for only 1 faction (4 if you wanna count the subfactions), I'm not sure the map will be used much if at all. Reason why this map has been neglected by the community is obviously its design. A simple change to those side supplies can make this map playable for any faction, and therefore make it more popular amongs the community.

Just my two cents.

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# 10HanDofDooM^ Nov 18 2019, 10:07 AM
QUOTE(Mp3 @ Nov 17 2019, 20:26 PM) *

This moment has been bugging me as well , but considering that the creator of this map was aiming in a total zh adaptation of cnc3 map (with the same exact resource positioning and I think the name as well) , I would say it was intentional rather then someone forgetting in moving the supply crates.
Still , this part of the map could require a change to this detail , since its indeed quite hard to gather those with China & GLA.

Btw. Almost all of the NMC maps were made by the same guy , that's now pushing the idea of a fan-made Generals 2 continuation in a different topic wink.gif


I wouldn't mind it being intentional (that's what it looks like anyways), but what I do mind is that it's a [RANK] map. It's obvious now why this map is NEVER played amongst pros/regulars, why would someone make a map in the mindset that the map will ONLY be used for USA mirrors. With a small change to the side supplies, we can definitely make the map much more popular IMO.

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# 11HanDofDooM^ Nov 18 2019, 10:14 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ Nov 17 2019, 20:55 PM) *

The NMC maps are mirrored top to bottom, left to right, so mirrors work best on them, or at least the same armies.

USA vs GLA/China on this map is not really a particularly big issue, as the USA player cannot safely collect from the middle unsafe, and is easily harassed at the upper-unsafe.

What is good to keep in mind when looking over maps is the actual in-game affect we see brought about by these design choices, which can only be learned through practice.


I do want to extensively test the difference in supplies collected during the next few days, I do know that middle can be easily harassed, but still, I'm not sure if that reason is enough to justify the map design.

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# 12-ExiLe` Nov 18 2019, 12:20 PM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ Nov 17 2019, 19:55 PM) *

The NMC maps are mirrored top to bottom, left to right, so mirrors work best on them, or at least the same armies.

USA vs GLA/China on this map is not really a particularly big issue, as the USA player cannot safely collect from the middle unsafe, and is easily harassed at the upper-unsafe.


Good points

But.. we do miss ambience sounds from multiple if not all nmc maps? Not really something to make a new version for but can be done along side other important fixes that are needed.

E.g. Plant Waste where there is barely any space to build on the side islands cuz of the bad terrain. Or removing the cars from Gorge (so many lol...)

This post has been edited by -ExiLe`: Nov 18 2019, 12:27 PM

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# 13Jundiyy Nov 18 2019, 12:55 PM
QUOTE(-ExiLe` @ Nov 18 2019, 12:20 PM) *


E.g. Plant Waste where there is barely any space to build on the side islands cuz of the bad terrain. Or removing the cars from Gorge (so many lol...)





I've seen some top level games on the map but yea that supply helps USA however USA would find it harder to collect from the middle, so in that sense it kind of balances it.
Of course if there was a v2 it could be changed but not sure if it's entirely needed.

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# 14-ExiLe` Nov 18 2019, 14:33 PM
QUOTE(Jundiyy @ Nov 18 2019, 14:55 PM) *

I've seen some top level games on the map but yea that supply helps USA however USA would find it harder to collect from the middle, so in that sense it kind of balances it.
Of course if there was a v2 it could be changed but not sure if it's entirely needed.


oh man, thought those details where just part of the terrain, didn't know these were destructible objects lol

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# 15Leikeze Nov 18 2019, 14:38 PM
QUOTE(HanDofDooM^ @ Nov 18 2019, 05:14 AM) *

I do want to extensively test the difference in supplies collected during the next few days, I do know that middle can be easily harassed, but still, I'm not sure if that reason is enough to justify the map design.

I have already extensively tested this map in the correct way, by playing it in dozens of real games with others, and I can say that the map plays uniquely, and it is not for everybody, however, the upper supply for the right and lower supply for the left player does not interfere as it looks like it would.

The real crux of the issue is the inability for the majority of players to adapt to map specific logistics that, for the more experience player, will tell him what is the best course of action when it comes to the most unanimously applauded or derided early game mechanic, taking your supplies.

Having said that, I do not believe the design of that supply is justified in the name of keeping true to the original map from CNC3, from which it was copied; Keeping the design of the map the same but maintaining ZH standards in regard to the supplies would have been ideal.

Additionally, and on another note, please use the Quote button to reply to multiple comments in one post instead of replying to each individually, as multi-posting like that is considered spam in just about every forum on the internet.

QUOTE(-ExiLe` @ Nov 18 2019, 07:20 AM) *

Good points

But.. we do miss ambience sounds from multiple if not all nmc maps? Not really something to make a new version for but can be done along side other important fixes that are needed.

E.g. Plant Waste where there is barely any space to build on the side islands cuz of the bad terrain. Or removing the cars from Gorge (so many lol...)

The lack of ambient noises and bothersome bits are not a problem big enough to justify making a new versions of the maps that would continue to confuse the system. Keep in mind that a map added to the system cannot be removed from the system.

What we'll have to do is not allow any more maps into the RANK pool that are not truly ready, which is what we are doing now.

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# 16-ExiLe` Nov 18 2019, 14:46 PM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ Nov 18 2019, 16:38 PM) *

The lack of ambient noises and bothersome bits are not a problem big enough to justify making a new versions of the maps


I literally said that tongue.gif

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# 17Leikeze Nov 18 2019, 14:57 PM
QUOTE(-ExiLe` @ Nov 18 2019, 09:46 AM) *

I literally said that tongue.gif

I see.

At least it's out there now so everybody can see it as confirmation. tongue.gif

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# 18Jundiyy Nov 18 2019, 15:08 PM
lol haha.
Well I added the sounds to Winter Arena and Snowy Drought. So it's a start.

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# 19JarmenElectra Nov 18 2019, 18:32 PM
I actally like this map and think that supply area is pretty cool/unique even if the mining isnt that efficient. Many noobs fail to realise there is a supply even there haha
but yea, cool map imo

if u guys make an edit version of it you could maybe put the oils there instead and move those supplys to where the oils currently are. That would solve it right and wouldnt unbalance the map. But as Leikeze said I dont think its a big issue and I believe Leikeze is hinting at taking that forwad supply first before expanding to that one (at least early game anyway if you're not a USA)

This post has been edited by JarmenElectra: Nov 18 2019, 18:38 PM

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