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CNC Zero Hour

GLA vs Toxin

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# 21Leikeze Apr 30 2019, 12:15 PM
QUOTE(JarmenElectra @ Feb 11 2019, 18:23 PM) *

a rax within distance of oils (which takes the same time as cool down period for cap up) theres no difference between rebel or cap first, right? Only if that running distance exceeded the capture cool down period on the rebel would there be a time difefrence (and a very large one potentially)

I suppose so.

Rebel first is always preferred just so they are on their way without your involvement.

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# 22Terminator 88 May 9 2019, 05:40 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ Apr 30 2019, 12:15 PM) *

I suppose so.

Rebel first is always preferred just so they are on their way without your involvement.

Toxin rebels give big advantage in the process of capturing buildings, because they are so deadly.

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# 23Leikeze May 9 2019, 10:37 AM
QUOTE(Terminator 88 @ May 9 2019, 00:40 AM) *

Toxin rebels give big advantage in the process of capturing buildings, because they are so deadly.

Yes, that is true, nobody can deny your oil capture with another infantry when you are Tox.

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# 24Terminator 88 May 10 2019, 11:03 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 9 2019, 10:37 AM) *

Yes, that is true, nobody can deny your oil capture with another infantry when you are Tox.

IMHO this is one of those little details that are in favor of the Tox vs vGLA (and all the others). Capturing the neutral buildings and especially the refineries in the beginning could be decisive. The Tox has the edge in the beginning, unless the vanilla guy knows how to use tricky tactics and is not trying to overpower his opponent.

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# 25Leikeze May 10 2019, 16:02 PM
QUOTE(Terminator 88 @ May 10 2019, 06:03 AM) *

IMHO this is one of those little details that are in favor of the Tox vs vGLA (and all the others). Capturing the neutral buildings and especially the refineries in the beginning could be decisive. The Tox has the edge in the beginning, unless the vanilla guy knows how to use tricky tactics and is not trying to overpower his opponent.

Yes, the only way for you to defeat a really good Toxin with GLA is to deny him the map control and do damage to his economy early on, otherwise he has great power to steamroll you in the first 5:00 minutes with those powerful Tunnels, Rebels, Terrorists, and Scorpions.

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# 26Terminator 88 May 13 2019, 05:23 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 10 2019, 16:02 PM) *

Yes, the only way for you to defeat a really good Toxin with GLA is to deny him the map control and do damage to his economy early on, otherwise he has great power to steamroll you in the first 5:00 minutes with those powerful Tunnels, Rebels, Terrorists, and Scorpions.

Yes, absolutely. You should be careful in the early parts of the game. In the later parts the Tox still has some nasty things- powerful SW, powerful Anthrax bomb, his defense is till decent because of those poisonous trails, his toxin units are still a little stronger, but the longer the games go, the harder for the Tox would be generally IMHO. The cash bonus which the Tox has early is slowly disappearing with the progress of the game (vGLA have to pay for the expensive Toxin shells and Anthrax gamma upgrades, but his units are generally cheaper). So- it is better for the Tox to be more aggressive in the beginning, because later he would be in disadvantageous position, also keep in mind Battle buses, Rocket buggies and other units like these, which are the same for both factions, but the Toxin's are more expensive.

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# 27Leikeze May 13 2019, 12:51 PM
Exactly right.

The cheaper Rocket Buggies of Vanilla GLA can really do a number on Tox tunnels as he struggles to match your numbers in his defense, often losing map control because of this, which can spell doom for some people.

I have seen many times, in good replays, Tox being pushed back due to those cheap Buggies, even if in the end they do not prevail.

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# 28Terminator 88 May 14 2019, 10:05 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 13 2019, 12:51 PM) *

Exactly right.

The cheaper Rocket Buggies of Vanilla GLA can really do a number on Tox tunnels as he struggles to match your numbers in his defense, often losing map control because of this, which can spell doom for some people.

I have seen many times, in good replays, Tox being pushed back due to those cheap Buggies, even if in the end they do not prevail.

Also the Quads, Battle Buses (Radar Vans are not needed in big numbers so the difference here is not big). The Quad Cannons are important factor in GLAs armies and in bigger numbers the price could be felt. Here the question is who can use his advantages better- the infantry, SW and defense are the clearly stronger points of the Tox (I take in account the effectiveness and price) and the tanks (later in the game, after the upgrades) and stealth units of the vGLA.

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# 29Leikeze May 14 2019, 11:41 AM
Many times Toxin players do the wrong thing by going for Quads early game, which makes them weaker in defense and offense, whereas many top players will go straight for Scorpions with rockets and try to spam those throughout the game.

All of those things must be taken into account to create a variety of replays.







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# 30Terminator 88 May 16 2019, 06:46 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 14 2019, 11:41 AM) *

Many times Toxin players do the wrong thing by going for Quads early game, which makes them weaker in defense and offense, whereas many top players will go straight for Scorpions with rockets and try to spam those throughout the game.

All of those things must be taken into account to create a variety of replays.









Wow, man, that is serious amount of proves in defense of your view! I will watch these replays, they make me curious. smile.gif Yes, we had a game 3 on 3 where one of the guys was Tox. This guy literally ran over one of my allies in the early game with Quads, many Quads. And it was pretty effective. I was thinking why he didn't choose vGLA instead, but still they won the game. I understand better the players who prefer to spam with RPG troopers in Battle Buses with the Toxin General... despite of the fact that I believe that BB with 8 RPG Troopers inside is deadly in all cases. smile.gif

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# 31Leikeze May 18 2019, 14:07 PM
Yes, definitely, BB with 8 Gamma-RPG Troopers inside is the most deadly unit in the game. It does nearly the same damage as a Nuke-cannon when targeting singular tanks/buildings.

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# 32Terminator 88 May 27 2019, 06:56 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 18 2019, 14:07 PM) *

Yes, definitely, BB with 8 Gamma-RPG Troopers inside is the most deadly unit in the game. It does nearly the same damage as a Nuke-cannon when targeting singular tanks/buildings.


Yes, they are deadly, I can say this from my own experience. I've been from the bad side of the BBs and I know how nasty the feeling is. But also I think the BBs with regular RPG Troopers shouldn't be underestimated. In large numbers they are bad, bad units which you have to deal with.
By the way in that line of thoughts I think some of the biggest advantages of the Tox in the later stages of the game- the SW and Anthrax bomb might be neutralized with that spraying trick with some toxin unit, for instance the Toxin tractors might be suitable for this job. If so- he might not be able to take out the enemy's SW with his own volley of missiles.

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# 33Leikeze May 27 2019, 12:15 PM
Yes, they can be a travesty. I myself was in a bad conflict against their power just yesterday. They plowed through scores of my Scorpion Tanks as they rolled into his small fortification.

You can see just how strong they are in this replay on my experimental map that I have included so you can watch the replay.
Attached File 19_21_29_1v1_Leikeze_Nickel.rep
Size: 102.61k
Number of downloads: 2
Player Name Side Team
Leikeze* 0
Nickel 0

Attached File Maps.7z
Size: 192k
Number of downloads: 2


Had he been able to hang onto the map control and get himself built up I would not have been able to defeat the might of his late game units, as he could have gotten buses and SCUD Storms with tunnel-spam to boot.

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# 34Terminator 88 May 27 2019, 12:20 PM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 27 2019, 12:15 PM) *

Yes, they can be a travesty. I myself was in a bad conflict against their power just yesterday. They plowed through scores of my Scorpion Tanks as they rolled into his small fortification.

You can see just how strong they are in this replay on my experimental map that I have included so you can watch the replay.
Attached File 19_21_29_1v1_Leikeze_Nickel.rep
Size: 102.61k
Number of downloads: 2
Player Name Side Team
Leikeze* 0
Nickel 0

Attached File Maps.7z
Size: 192k
Number of downloads: 2


Had he been able to hang onto the map control and get himself built up I would not have been able to defeat the might of his late game units, as he could have gotten buses and SCUD Storms with tunnel-spam to boot.


Hm, seems interesting! I should check it out!

P.S. Leikeze, man, you are one of the fastest forum members I have ever seen. And no, no just that forum, I think from the forums in which I take part. smile.gif

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# 35Leikeze May 27 2019, 12:25 PM
Thanks.

I type quickly and love to see others reply. biggrin.gif

Also, you should check out the pinned topics in my clan for some cool stuff. Feel free to post anything you want in there.

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# 36Terminator 88 May 27 2019, 14:06 PM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 27 2019, 12:25 PM) *

Thanks.

I type quickly and love to see others reply. biggrin.gif

Also, you should check out the pinned topics in my clan for some cool stuff. Feel free to post anything you want in there.

This is the truth, man! You are very fast, if you are so fast in the game, too- you definitely are some monster player, who destroys everybody in the beginning. I would check this link, too. smile.gif

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# 37Leikeze May 27 2019, 20:23 PM
Well, it takes more than speed to be a monster player; Strategy is most important.

But if I am allowed to go early, then I will destroy in the beginning.

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# 38Terminator 88 May 28 2019, 05:06 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 27 2019, 20:23 PM) *

Well, it takes more than speed to be a monster player; Strategy is most important.

But if I am allowed to go early, then I will destroy in the beginning.

Yes, I agree. The speed is very important in RTS games, but the tactics (which are dependent of speed, too) and strategy are probably more important.

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# 39Leikeze May 29 2019, 14:44 PM
Zero Hour makes a slight departure from other RTS titles when it comes to speed vs strategy on lower levels.

In the realm of Beginners through Semis, one may win games purely by outpacing their opponents, thereby leading the course of the game, however, if their strategy is bad, they will never do so convincingly.

Whereas in games like Starcraft, Age of Empires, etc., you cannot win without executing a good strategy better than your opponent did, no matter what the level is.

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# 40Terminator 88 May 31 2019, 10:04 AM
QUOTE(Leikeze @ May 29 2019, 14:44 PM) *

Zero Hour makes a slight departure from other RTS titles when it comes to speed vs strategy on lower levels.

In the realm of Beginners through Semis, one may win games purely by outpacing their opponents, thereby leading the course of the game, however, if their strategy is bad, they will never do so convincingly.

Whereas in games like Starcraft, Age of Empires, etc., you cannot win without executing a good strategy better than your opponent did, no matter what the level is.

Interesting... I've heard that in StarCraft the tactics are from great importantance. For instance 3 marines kill one lurker without casualties, just by circling it on every 0.6- 1 second, because the marines fire on every 06 seconds, while lurker does this on every second. smile.gif
In Zero Hour in 50k games I believe that the strategy matters. You can be very good, but if you are not able to take out or at least to cripple seriously your opponent with better tactics in the beginning, you are most likely to lose the game in later stages.
Act of War is a game which is simple to the Generals' universe in terms of units, but there the tactics play more important role. And still- I am not a good player, so my thoughts are from some lower levels.

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