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Dawn of War 3

The future of DOW3?

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# 21Gorb Jan 31 2018, 09:39 AM
QUOTE(Bolivar687 @ Jan 31 2018, 00:49 AM) *
It's not a list of needs, it's a collection of non-design oversights big and small which together hinder the growth and retention of the game.

Adding new factions would obviously be the biggest thing but it's definitely a larger ask.

You literally said these were changes they needed to make. Come on, if you're going to hold Relic to account at least be responsible for what you're saying.

It's not like they're not valid requests. But like Dullahan has just proved, everybody has different "needs", and different ideas of what "oversights" are. This is why Relic have stuck to safe, popular community requests in their updates to date. Customisable Elite skins was a popular community request. Everyone likes more MP maps (well, almost everyone). More Elites was a popular request. Helmeted skins was another community request. Expanded modding tools was a popular community request.

I'm probably forgetting some. But since launch, since the game received the impressions that it did, Relic have done everything to satisfy popular community requests, that benefit as wide a segment of the playerbase as possible. UI polish is lower on that list (and even then, they did some of that. A lot of that, even). Observer is lower on that list. All the other minor tweaks you want to the online Ranked experience (this includes statistics and whatnot) are lower on that list.

I'll say it again: they're not unreasonable requests. What is unreasonable is assuming that these are The Changes That Will Save The Game Before All Other Factors. People have been making that implied demand since launch. Balance was killing the game. We got balance patches. Didn't affect player retention. No Annihilation Mode is killing the game (hey there's one I forgot). We got Annihilation Mode. Didn't affect player retention (at least in the short term). Not being able to customise the colours of my Elites? Games Workshop would be ashamed, looks like Relic just hate the lore. We got paintable Elites. Didn't affect player retention.

And so on, and so forth.

The biggest mistake in my experience is that consumers often default to thinking the lack of these things you're asking for is an "oversight", or that the developers aren't smart enough to see the "need" for them (not saying you said this Bolivar, either). This is kinda unfair, to the point of being insulting. The people that don't "see" everything are the consumers. If something wasn't implemented, it's usually because there wasn't time for it. Not because the developers didn't see the need for it.

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# 22Bigamo Feb 1 2018, 10:21 AM
IDK if the game have saving now, Relic thenselve don't look to try to save the game anymore.

Why in hell they didn't just made Anihilation the ladder mode with a doctrine rework/erase?

The time window to try to improve has passed, now would need something truly dire, as a free expansion with new race/s AND game MAJOR rework, removing PC mode and Doctrines and delivering a proper game mode. Anihilation with defenses would do it.

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# 23Dullahan Feb 2 2018, 03:38 AM
QUOTE(Bigamo @ Feb 1 2018, 03:21 AM) *

IDK if the game have saving now, Relic thenselve don't look to try to save the game anymore.

Why in hell they didn't just made Anihilation the ladder mode with a doctrine rework/erase?

The time window to try to improve has passed, now would need something truly dire, as a free expansion with new race/s AND game MAJOR rework, removing PC mode and Doctrines and delivering a proper game mode. Anihilation with defenses would do it.



They clearly said months ago they were working on big new content for Feb release.

I disagree on removing power core mode and doctrines too. Only a handful of doctrines are a balance issue, and power core mode is a great game mode.

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Game: Dawn of War 2


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# 24Spirit. Feb 3 2018, 12:58 PM
Power core mode is great yeah, just needs some tweaks. Maybe give shields more hp and make it so that objectives dont grand so much ressources, maybe no ep for sg destruction too.

Posts: 2,933

Game: Dawn of War 2


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# 25Bolivar687 Feb 3 2018, 15:49 PM
QUOTE(Gorb @ Jan 31 2018, 09:39 AM) *

You literally said these were changes they needed to make. Come on, if you're going to hold Relic to account at least be responsible for what you're saying.

It's not like they're not valid requests. But like Dullahan has just proved, everybody has different "needs", and different ideas of what "oversights" are. This is why Relic have stuck to safe, popular community requests in their updates to date. Customisable Elite skins was a popular community request. Everyone likes more MP maps (well, almost everyone). More Elites was a popular request. Helmeted skins was another community request. Expanded modding tools was a popular community request.

I'm probably forgetting some. But since launch, since the game received the impressions that it did, Relic have done everything to satisfy popular community requests, that benefit as wide a segment of the playerbase as possible. UI polish is lower on that list (and even then, they did some of that. A lot of that, even). Observer is lower on that list. All the other minor tweaks you want to the online Ranked experience (this includes statistics and whatnot) are lower on that list.

I'll say it again: they're not unreasonable requests. What is unreasonable is assuming that these are The Changes That Will Save The Game Before All Other Factors. People have been making that implied demand since launch. Balance was killing the game. We got balance patches. Didn't affect player retention. No Annihilation Mode is killing the game (hey there's one I forgot). We got Annihilation Mode. Didn't affect player retention (at least in the short term). Not being able to customise the colours of my Elites? Games Workshop would be ashamed, looks like Relic just hate the lore. We got paintable Elites. Didn't affect player retention.

And so on, and so forth.

The biggest mistake in my experience is that consumers often default to thinking the lack of these things you're asking for is an "oversight", or that the developers aren't smart enough to see the "need" for them (not saying you said this Bolivar, either). This is kinda unfair, to the point of being insulting. The people that don't "see" everything are the consumers. If something wasn't implemented, it's usually because there wasn't time for it. Not because the developers didn't see the need for it.


I think you're taking "needs" overly literal. Dukejason asked a question and I submitted my list. You don't need to go on the defensive for Relic, I'm just responding to the discussion.

A lot of these really are oversights, though. RTS had observer mode int he 90s, we should not be going backwards. They made a game that was fun to watch and easy to read but gave no ability for commentators to livestream competitive games. I really believe that a lack of a live e-sport is part of why new players give up on the game, as shown by the endless negative Steam reviews with less than five hours of play.

Also, a big reason none of this affected player retention is because they came out individually and infrequently over the last year. There usually were nice boosts to online population but each small update with a month in between was not enough to address core issues and retain players until the next one.

No one has defended the game more than me on the official forum but I do question the Relic's commitment to improve the game and their will to maintain the kind of ongoing support competitive titles like this require. Their communication with the community has been non-existent since the days of the closed beta or close enough to it even when Kat was still assigned to the game. The last developer post on the forum admits that much of the last content drops were already in the tank for a while and they basically just unloaded everything they had left. The GlassDoor review seemed to confirm that no one over there has the motivation to turn things around and put the game in the position that the core package really deserves.

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Game: Dawn of War 3


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# 26Gorb Feb 3 2018, 21:20 PM
I'm not taking anything "overly" literally when you're going around approving of trolls attacking me on the community forums.

I've got nothing more to say here, unfortunately. Your defense of the game on the community forums is sorely lacking, if that's how you deal with people disagreeing with you. You lack the respect for honest debate.

I wish dukejason the best of luck with this initiative. The guy has been nothing but positive since he first turned up on the community forums.

This post has been edited by Gorb: Feb 3 2018, 21:31 PM

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# 27Dullahan Feb 4 2018, 04:31 AM
QUOTE(Bolivar687 @ Feb 3 2018, 08:49 AM) *

A lot of these really are oversights, though. RTS had observer mode int he 90s, we should not be going backwards. They made a game that was fun to watch and easy to read but gave no ability for commentators to livestream competitive games.



I believe the idea behind not having an observer mode was because of the prevalence of twitch etc. Many players for coH2 for example just stream themselves playing on the ladder and people watch from their POV.

I think proper casting of competitive games wouldn't be very common, simply because most people play on the ladder and not custom games.

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Game: Dawn of War 2


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# 28Carnevour Feb 5 2018, 05:23 AM
QUOTE(Dullahan @ Feb 4 2018, 04:31 AM) *

I believe the idea behind not having an observer mode was because of the prevalence of twitch etc. Many players for coH2 for example just stream themselves playing on the ladder and people watch from their POV.

I think proper casting of competitive games wouldn't be very common, simply because most people play on the ladder and not custom games.

This is quite silly, its a given that any competitive game no matter how small has a observer mode to actually the cast game even on twitch. POV streams are fine, but what about tournaments? Do you really think that people have to find these replays after the tournament is done? Ofc not its more busy work and a hassle, it contradicts of not having an observer mode due to players doing stream, because it removes the part where people in the community that want to stream tournament games cant do it. It creates a poor viewing experience if you just have to watch a pov of a 1 person while the match consists of 2 players going at it.

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# 29Dullahan Feb 5 2018, 07:12 AM
QUOTE(Carnevour @ Feb 4 2018, 22:23 PM) *

This is quite silly, its a given that any competitive game no matter how small has a observer mode to actually the cast game even on twitch. POV streams are fine, but what about tournaments? Do you really think that people have to find these replays after the tournament is done? Ofc not its more busy work and a hassle, it contradicts of not having an observer mode due to players doing stream, because it removes the part where people in the community that want to stream tournament games cant do it. It creates a poor viewing experience if you just have to watch a pov of a 1 person while the match consists of 2 players going at it.


Someone could just as easily stream cast of replays on a slight delay, which works better logistically anyway than constantly waiting for players to be ready from small breaks and what not.

Observer mode would be nice, and a better replay viewer would be amazing, but it's clear they decided to commit resources to areas that were more important. (Like the in game codex and tooltips being massively improved over Dow2/CoH2)


Hopefully it shows up eventually, because I would love to invite a dozen people to a lobby and just play 1v1 matches all day rather than deal with quick match wait times and shit. But for tournaments it has never been necessary.

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Game: Dawn of War 2


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# 30Paranoid Kamikaze Feb 6 2018, 05:50 AM
If you check Twitch you'll notice the largest increases in viewership are from live events. Which you need an observer mode for tongue.gif

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# 31dukejason Feb 6 2018, 21:11 PM
QUOTE(Gorb @ Feb 3 2018, 17:20 PM) *

I'm not taking anything "overly" literally when you're going around approving of trolls attacking me on the community forums.

I've got nothing more to say here, unfortunately. Your defense of the game on the community forums is sorely lacking, if that's how you deal with people disagreeing with you. You lack the respect for honest debate.

I wish dukejason the best of luck with this initiative. The guy has been nothing but positive since he first turned up on the community forums.


Just an FYI, Gorb is one of the longest running moderators for relic entertainment. The guy has sacrificed his time to help the dow community. He is an encyclopedia when it comes to dow franchise,and he is someone that should be respected. This is a guy that would help anyone that needs it.

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# 32Bolivar687 Feb 7 2018, 03:38 AM
QUOTE(Paranoid Kamikaze @ Feb 6 2018, 05:50 AM) *

If you check Twitch you'll notice the largest increases in viewership are from live events. Which you need an observer mode for tongue.gif


Yeah, I can't really see how Twitch diminishes the importance of observer, it only magnifies it. You really can't make a game like this, especially with the competitive dynamic of Power Core, and not have players watching live tournaments in real time.

We do have casters who stream after the replays are uploaded and you get things like Hertz running into problems at the beginning of his last 2v2 Purge Tournament stream. It's just not the same. Getting everyone together at the same time live is such a huge part of creating a sense of community.

QUOTE(dukejason @ Feb 6 2018, 21:11 PM) *

Just an FYI, Gorb is one of the longest running moderators for relic entertainment. The guy has sacrificed his time to help the dow community. He is an encyclopedia when it comes to dow franchise,and he is someone that should be respected. This is a guy that would help anyone that needs it.


I know who Gorb is and I admire how tirelessly he's worked at the official forums in the face of a lot of adversity. I did click a Like a comment that just said "fu," partly out of frustration of his dismantling of my post here but I also feel his moderation gets carried away in an unproductive manner at times. Still, it was cheap and I unchecked it after he brought it up.

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# 33dukejason Feb 7 2018, 17:32 PM
We have to come together to enjoy the dow series and simply to have fun,and let go of the petty shit that happens. We are all on the same team.

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# 34Technique Feb 9 2018, 11:16 AM
Guess no future for DOW3, which is a shame I feel this game could've been turned around with an expansion.
Or at the very least some more storyline/campaign with another faction or 2.

QUOTE

"When a game underperforms, plans need to change. With Dawn of War 3, we simply don't have the foundation we need to produce major content. We're working in close partnership with Sega and Games Workshop to determine the best course of action, while shifting focus to other projects within our portfolio."



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# 35Johann Tilly Feb 9 2018, 13:18 PM
New News come out regarding DoW 3: http://www.gamestar.de/artikel/dawn-of-war...hr,3325838.html

Sega and Relic have just announced that they wont made any addons for DOW 3.
So DoW 3 is kinda a failure, also because of to less players.

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# 36IpKaiFung Feb 10 2018, 18:18 PM
QUOTE(Dullahan @ Feb 4 2018, 05:31 AM) *

I believe the idea behind not having an observer mode was because of the prevalence of twitch etc. Many players for coH2 for example just stream themselves playing on the ladder and people watch from their POV.

I think proper casting of competitive games wouldn't be very common, simply because most people play on the ladder and not custom games.


The big viewer numbers for CoH2 come from live events which are streamed via observer mode. It also allowed us to have a live venue event last year for CoH2 where we had the commentators, players and spectators in the same place and stream that.

Observer mode would have been great for tournaments but alas you gotta cast them after the matches have finished and also hope the players remember to save the replays

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# 37Bigamo Feb 11 2018, 12:38 PM
QUOTE(dukejason @ Feb 7 2018, 14:32 PM) *

We have to come together to enjoy the dow series and simply to have fun,and let go of the petty shit that happens. We are all on the same team.


Thats a lie, Gorb is a slave to Relic, he doesn't even play Relic games and keep banning everyone without any reason. This guy is just a loser that the thiefs at Relic give power to make their brigand job.

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# 38Bigamo Feb 11 2018, 13:22 PM
QUOTE(Dullahan @ Feb 2 2018, 00:38 AM) *

They clearly said months ago they were working on big new content for Feb release.

I disagree on removing power core mode and doctrines too. Only a handful of doctrines are a balance issue, and power core mode is a great game mode.


I have to defend Relic this time, they never said so, we believed they have been all this time working in improving the game for a surprise BIG patch, cause we assumed that Relic did care for the game, but they NEVER were working on the game since before release...

I am happy to don't have my name put in Dawn of war 3 credits. The wall of shame.

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# 39Dullahan Feb 12 2018, 01:50 AM
QUOTE(Bigamo @ Feb 11 2018, 06:22 AM) *

I have to defend Relic this time, they never said so, we believed they have been all this time working in improving the game for a surprise BIG patch, cause we assumed that Relic did care for the game, but they NEVER were working on the game since before release...

I am happy to don't have my name put in Dawn of war 3 credits. The wall of shame.



No, both Kat and Ben suggested they were working on stuff.

"What’s next? We’ve been working hard to give you monthly updates since launch, with Endless War being the largest one yet. While you’re out there stomping Orks, the team will be taking a bit of time to digest all the feedback and plan out what new goodies we can bring to Dawn of War III next. The live team is currently scoping out the next steps based on your feedback, and will be popping in to chat with you in the weeks ahead."

-Kat


It does seem like plans for an expansion were scrapped shortly after release though.

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