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Red Alert 3

Counter to MGturret push, even in this patch

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# 1avilo Feb 24 2009, 10:53 AM
People have expressed how lame or powerful or both the MGturret push is. Same with tesla coils. So I'm going to write this entirely from a Soviet perspective, as I haven't even played a game as allies since EVGA, because I like SvA and I like having a crane to play sim city ;p so Soviets, here is a guide for you. The good players may know some of it, but it's clear they don't know everything, because they are being raped by MGturrets in the most ridiculous games, even "good soviets."

But the fact is, the allied one is stoppable on most maps, and usually if allies goes for a turret push, you can absolutely face rape them because you'll be ahead 1-2 expansions.

How do you stop these ezmode turrets?
Well, one it takes a lot of skill. The MGturret itself is not powerful, it is the combination of that, along with proxy rax/airfield possibilities that allow a turret push to be successful.

Just me personally, except for maybe ridiculous 2v2 games o.o, I can't remember any games that I've lost to a turret push, especially straight out turret pushes. Turret pushing is strong yes, but there is also a style that completely rapes it.

Anyways, the skills/knowledge required to stop the MGturret:

1) Timing senses + unit combination sense, knowledge of maximum build radius and maximum firing radius.

There are different timings an allied player might move his MCV out. He could do it straight after two refs on a map like snow plow/bbb/fire island, which creates a weird timing that gives you a false sense of security because you'll be up 1 expansion.

If allies goes for a two ref MCV mg turret push, they are 100% completely relying on faggot MGturrets to do dmg to you, and bring your economy down to their level.

The easiest way to stop his push is with one of the most underused things that soviets have in their arsenal - the flaktrooper bunker. Yep, the one ur engineer can build! It is stronger than the MG turret, and more versatile, which is crazy. If you ever get a flak bunker in ur own base, you'll be feeling the pain worse than any MGturret could cause you.

So once you recognize your opponent is sending his MCV towards you, right away, you need to construct a bunker with an engineer. This is where repeated practice and game knowledge comes in - your placement has to be predetermined for each map in RA3, and it has to be at the most common turret pushing spot within the maximum build radius of the allied MCV.

This allows your flak bunker+ur other units to kill any MGturret that pops up with zero difficulty, and all the time ur opponent is currently wasting just means you rape his face 2 minutes or so later with whatever you want to.

The important factor in using the flak bunker to completely rape an allied turret pusher's face is by knowing the maximum build radius of the allied MCV, along with knowing the range/placement of your bunker. Once you learn this and practice good placements, along with using WALLS, the turret push seems very LOL and you'll start beating turret pushers quite easily.

2) Microing hammer tanks + patience!
Hammer tanks have always had their leech beam available that outranges the MGturret. The key here is microing hammers, while getting either migs/bullfrogs to stop vindicator bombing runs. You usually need both to combat apollos.

When ur hammer tanks have leeched around half health of an MGturret, that is when you change all ur hammers to primary mode and charge the turret/infantry. I see very few players recognizing when they need to do this, and then their hammers get raped by javelins, the MG itself, and other things, which allows more MGturrets to accumulate, and it just snowballs.

Be sure you micro good vs the first turret that is up and the most important thing is: BE PATIENT.

I see a kajillion soviet vs allies replays where I'm watching, and if I was commentating I'd say the soviet is in a great position to stop the push and win the game...and then to my dismay, the soviet player loses focus, stops microing, and suicides all of his hammers into 1-2 MGturrets+infantry.

You have to be VERY patient with hammer tanks VS the MGturret. Do not be a hero and charge it with 3 hammer tanks unless you know u can take the MG out for sure or you have very good micro and are running over inf in the process to leech health.

Like I mentioned earlier, the MGturret push is looking to level out your economical advantage with the allies because they are on less refineries than you in most of these situations. You need to build up hammer tanks, 4+, and you do that by being PATIENT. Patience is not a virtue in soviet vs allies in these situations - PATIENCE IS YOUR LIFE. If you are not patient, you will be killed.

So retreat ur hammer tanks back, leech at the turret as much as possible, and continually micro until you can move into primary, take out the turret, and run away. Be sure you have flaks/migs/bullfrogs to keep vindicators at bay.

Yes, a good allies is going to be able to snipe some hammers or bullfrogs here and there, but you as a good soviets will be killing just as many vindicators with good awareness and mig/bullfrog control. It just about evens out, it depends on who micros better, and also on not overextending your hammer tanks.

Your goal during this entire time vs a turret pusher is to be expanding to your 4th/5th refinery and then teching for V4s, which is your endgame unit. You also are patiently waiting for mag sat level 3 and the EMP power. Playing Soviets vs allies is all about patience.

Yes, soviets are mechanically easy to play, easier than allies (I have experience with both) but they are just as difficult to play at top level as allies or empire are. And you need to recognize this and really focus on not losing any units carelessly like I see in so many replays.

3) The Tesla coil + Sim City 2009 + game knowledge and practiced wall/building placements

This is also the most common defense vs the MGturret, along with your own turret push that can be used for offence.

The tesla coil is easily > than the MGturret. So obviously this is ezmode right? Wrong. Allies have vindicators that can break your defense if you are careless. The answer?

Migs+bullfrogs. Migs/bullfrogs have always been the answer to vindicators and air throughout the entire RA3 metagame so far. There are so many different styles and unit ratios when doing this it isn't even funny. RA3 has quite a bit of depth compared to cnc3/kw in terms of styles and what you can do.

Like some people complain, you can go extreme pure air, mass migs/twinblades, and go for a hanbang one-timing attack on your opponent that can leave them face raped, or you could go with mroe bullfrogs and less migs which is just as effective.

Back to the turret pushing defense. Migs are your main unit that is going to snipe incoming vindicators. The migs attack is instant on impact, which makes it immediately more useful than bullfrogs to shoot down vinds b4 they drop ANY bombs.

But bullfrogs also 3-5, will stop vindicators, you just have to be very aware and micro as the vinds come in, so that you achieve the same effect.

Apollos will be in the air during the main turret push, but there may not be a mass of them, probably just 3-7, depending on ur opponent's style. So scout and be sure to know how many there are. The great thing about bullfrogs over migs is that apollos cannot shoot bullfrogs, so while migs are very good vs air, we all know apollos are superior, which is perfectly fine...because u have bullfrogs! You must use both.

Anyways, when you get that Tesla coil up, the positioning is going to determine whether you horrifically get raped by 1 measly turret, or whether you insta-rape their push and make them pack up and go home to expand and catch up with you.

During the mid-game, when you see the allied MCV coming towards you, you should be macroing walls in L shapes in certain parts of your base. This allows you to put a tesla behind it when you need to, along with being able to wall in your tesla, which of course, means MG turrets and other things cannot hit it. This is "wall macro," and soviets need to incorporate it into their game by placing not "random" wall hubs everywhere, but by cleanly and with thought, placing walls for future use.

AFter that, it's cake. Tesla > MG ezmode ;l

That's about it...there's no magical secret to killing turrets, there's no magical imba one way or another tbh. Is the MGturret too powerful? Maybe. Is it stoppable at top levels of play, and even lower levels? Yes, it is. Is it too easy to execute as a strategy? Yes, it is wayyyyy too easy to pull off.

But that aside, you can stop it as a soviet player, it is about patience, wall/tesla/building placement and knowledge of build radius'/max firing radius, and abusing the engineer bunker in a smart manner.

That is about it. /discuss !
also, this game is a nice example:


Edit by Xenith~Fixed the video tags

This post has been edited by Xenith: Feb 26 2009, 22:09 PM



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# 2Kaia Feb 24 2009, 11:06 AM
it's not bad, but i would suggest to edit the text a bit to maybe give more space/colors so thats a more enjoyable read smile.gif

This post has been edited by Kaia: Feb 24 2009, 11:09 AM

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# 3Matiz_pl Feb 24 2009, 11:44 AM
Fuck yea, that's what every soviet player must know. I was about posting similiar things but you were first avilo. Respect, awesome post.

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# 4JoZhA Feb 24 2009, 11:50 AM
great post avilo! personaly i think MG turret pushes were very strong when they were frst discovered! as an empire player i seriously dont have problems with MG turrets( couple of tsunamies + some inf) becouse i can get MG health down to half before it even starts to shoot! the tesla push is the thing thats a very strong becouse it can shoot through walls deals huge damage(1 shot tsunamie) and sov can even just cancle for full refund if its getting killed!

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# 5TheM Feb 24 2009, 12:00 PM
Lol... eat ur own foot all who claim that mg turret pushes are unstoppable.
Unfortunately, AvA still sucks since Allies don't have bears.

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# 6Whalecore Feb 24 2009, 12:17 PM
Yea Allied turret push is np.

Tesla push is unbeatable on some maps tho :l And next patch... nothing will help

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# 7gds000be Feb 24 2009, 12:29 PM
very usefull info ... thx

but I still find turret pushing lame & too easy to execute ...
which should be tweaked somehow imho

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# 8oscarg Feb 24 2009, 12:56 PM
the tesla push is pretty counterable by empire.
has anybody seen that tip of the week?
with the shinobi and tankbuster micro?

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# 9TheM Feb 24 2009, 13:12 PM
QUOTE(Whalecore @ Feb 24 2009, 13:17 PM) *

Yea Allied turret push is np.

Tesla push is unbeatable on some maps tho :l And next patch... nothing will help


Well, there's always a chance that tesla won't work tongue.gif

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# 10Hallucinated Feb 24 2009, 14:22 PM
A really good guide, but I'm afraid that in next patch counter#1 might not work because they're nerfing garrison range boost to 25%, making it a lot weaker against air.

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# 11Botel Feb 24 2009, 14:37 PM
Avilo that was win bowdown.gif bowdown.gif bowdown.gif

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# 12Sync Feb 24 2009, 15:29 PM
Nice one biggrin.gif

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# 13DiZpoZableHero Feb 24 2009, 15:32 PM
Okay okay sure this looks good on paper but you have to realize that something that takes no skill and its counter is something that is something only the best can do doesn't mean it isn't imba.

That's what is wrong with YOU Allied players. You are so wrapped around how much you don't want Allies to be touched but the truth is, is that they are NOT balanced. PK's and MG turrets aren't a balanced army. If the game continues to have little depth like this than many top level players will get bored quickly and the game's popularity will be equal to or less than CnC3 and KW.

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# 14B00M Feb 24 2009, 16:19 PM
...
Flaktower cost = Pointless engi (500$) , Bunker (500$) , 5 flaks ($1500)

2500$ ... can be blocked with... 1 wall segment $10

Also, i dno but most 2 ref towerspammers spam isnanely much dogs so i doubt you can get engi turret up


Tesla/mig/hammer/bullfrog is common knowledge, but nice guid anyway

This post has been edited by B00M: Feb 24 2009, 16:20 PM

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# 15Thats me! Feb 24 2009, 16:28 PM
QUOTE(Mystierius @ Feb 24 2009, 17:32 PM) *

Okay okay sure this looks good on paper but you have to realize that something that takes no skill and its counter is something that is something only the best can do doesn't mean it isn't imba.

That's what is wrong with YOU Allied players. You are so wrapped around how much you don't want Allies to be touched but the truth is, is that they are NOT balanced. PK's and MG turrets aren't a balanced army.If the game continues to have little depth like this than many top level
players will get bored quickly and the game's popularity will be equal to or less than CnC3 and KW.

QFT!
i wanna see that from a non-allied player.

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# 16oscarg Feb 24 2009, 17:37 PM
the shinobi kicks tesla ass!!!!!!!!!!
and tankbusters do it too!

but it doesnt work against multigunners because a single vindi can simpley knock out an 1000 cash infantry unit.
if only the ninjas could dodge vindicator bombs biggrin.gif

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# 17avilo Feb 24 2009, 18:17 PM
well, you can get a shinobi into a super reactor, which totally f u c k s Soviets, but really soon you'll see every soviet walling their super reactor and doing more thoughtful building placement.



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# 18Thats me! Feb 24 2009, 18:25 PM
QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 20:17 PM) *

well, you can get a shinobi into a super reactor, which totally f u c k s Soviets, but really soon you'll see every soviet walling their super reactor and doing more thoughtful building placement.

but i think 2 min are enough to fuck off any player who is on low power(a player which use turrets as his main army will be pretty much gg).

This post has been edited by Thats me!: Feb 24 2009, 18:26 PM

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# 19B00M Feb 24 2009, 18:49 PM
now that i think of it, its pretty awesome that flak bunker.. mainly cus of the huge AA range turret that it becomes tho ;p

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# 20avilo Feb 24 2009, 18:59 PM
yeh, flak bunker really needs to be abused a lot more. It's fucking strong + 5 flaks makes it even stronger. the bunker survives vinds very easily iirc.

This post has been edited by avilo: Feb 24 2009, 19:00 PM



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