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Counter to MGturret push, even in this patch

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# 21BlasiuS Feb 24 2009, 19:11 PM
QUOTE(B00M @ Feb 24 2009, 11:19 AM) *

...
Flaktower cost = Pointless engi (500$) , Bunker (500$) , 5 flaks ($1500)

2500$ ... can be blocked with... 1 wall segment $10



I don't quite agree with this, you can build the bunker with your first engineer while it's on its way to capturing a derrick, so the $500 isn't wasted. Also, pretty much everyone already makes flaks anyway, and the flaks can come out of the bunker once you've defended the turret push, so the $1500 doesn't really count towards the cost.

So really, it's just $500 for bunker, and maybe an extra $500 if you didn't already plan on getting any oil derricks. Plus one engineer can make more bunkers right? So that's only $1000 for 2 bunkers, a pretty good deal considering a flak cannon is $800.

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# 22avilo Feb 24 2009, 19:36 PM
engineer bunker is even good on fire island whether ur being turret pushed or not. You can get one on each flank mid-game and it'll stop/deter PKs ez, as well as giving you super dog protection early game.



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# 23Artistic Feb 24 2009, 20:41 PM
Engie bunker will get a nerf next patch (garrison nerf), so it will not become as powerfull with its limited range. On the other hand, vindis will get nerfed so the tower/vindi combo will be less strong, making a turret push easier to stop.

Nice post, but i expect some replays vs top allied (ST2 or Dynamic tongue.gif) to back up your statements biggrin.gif.

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# 24rockwood Feb 24 2009, 21:11 PM
so how do you stop the amazing tesla push

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# 25Alan_Schezar Feb 24 2009, 21:20 PM
QUOTE(Kaia @ Feb 24 2009, 03:06 AM) *

it's not bad, but i would suggest to edit the text a bit to maybe give more space/colors so thats a more enjoyable read smile.gif




Colors are a good thing, no doubt smilie_naughty.gif thumb.gif


Regarding your MG-Turret push counter, most often the Alled MCV will not turret-push into your base. He'll push to your expansion node, like Maistral always does (although with Soviets). With that, your plan to use a Tesla Coil won't come into play.

Moreover, the long time that it takes micro'd hammers to take out a MG-Turret on Leech Beam is a problem. 'Patience', yes, but while you're waiting on your Hammers, the Allied player is building Refineries and capturing the oil.


This way, the Allied player STILL wins the money game, 4 ore nodes to your 3, and most likely 1-2 Oil Derricks to your none. The Allied player will be short on money early on, while he's going 2 Refineries to the Soviet's 3, but the Soviet is spending much more on defense than the Allied player is spending on offense. For example:


Allies
2 MG Turrets = $1800
7 Javelins = $2800
7 PKs = $1400

Total = $6000


Soviet
1 War Factory = $2000
1 Super Reactor = $1800
3 Hammers = $3000
1 Engineer = $500
1 Bunker = $500
5 Flak Troopers = $1500
3 Bullfrogs = $2700

Total = $12,000



Both Allied and Soviet players build an Airfield with 4 air units, so that cancels out.


This post has been edited by Alan_Schezar: Feb 24 2009, 21:21 PM

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# 26Crunk 8D Feb 24 2009, 21:50 PM
Engy bunker is very good and I use it all the time but good allied player will still win. They can just put MG turret directly out of the flak bunkers range, then make a proxy barracks + spam PKs to kill the bunker. then along with a proxy airfield it becomes a huge pain in the ass. I guess they are counterable but its still pretty retarded gameplay.

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# 27WarLock Feb 24 2009, 22:15 PM
boom, you calculate so wrong, don't compare 1 v 1 look in general. How many peacekeepers do you lose as an allies player, more then your calculated money

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# 28WarLock Feb 24 2009, 22:17 PM
QUOTE(Alan_Schezar @ Feb 24 2009, 22:20 PM) *

Colors are a good thing, no doubt smilie_naughty.gif thumb.gif
Regarding your MG-Turret push counter, most often the Alled MCV will not turret-push into your base. He'll push to your expansion node, like Maistral always does (although with Soviets). With that, your plan to use a Tesla Coil won't come into play.

Moreover, the long time that it takes micro'd hammers to take out a MG-Turret on Leech Beam is a problem. 'Patience', yes, but while you're waiting on your Hammers, the Allied player is building Refineries and capturing the oil.
This way, the Allied player STILL wins the money game, 4 ore nodes to your 3, and most likely 1-2 Oil Derricks to your none. The Allied player will be short on money early on, while he's going 2 Refineries to the Soviet's 3, but the Soviet is spending much more on defense than the Allied player is spending on offense. For example:
Allies
2 MG Turrets = $1800
7 Javelins = $2800
7 PKs = $1400

Total = $6000


Soviet
1 War Factory = $2000
1 Super Reactor = $1800
3 Hammers = $3000
1 Engineer = $500
1 Bunker = $500
5 Flak Troopers = $1500
3 Bullfrogs = $2700

Total = $12,000

Both Allied and Soviet players build an Airfield with 4 air units, so that cancels out.



yeahh ? allieds don't need power ore an airfield wacko.gif. Omg this is just so awful, can't see any worse compare anymore

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# 29rockwood Feb 24 2009, 22:21 PM
so add in 2 ref to each and a crusher crane to 1?, this could be a lot of dif ways

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# 30riz Feb 24 2009, 22:36 PM
QUOTE(Mystierius @ Feb 24 2009, 16:32 PM) *

Okay okay sure this looks good on paper but you have to realize that something that takes no skill and its counter is something that is something only the best can do doesn't mean it isn't imba.

That's what is wrong with YOU Allied players. You are so wrapped around how much you don't want Allies to be touched but the truth is, is that they are NOT balanced. PK's and MG turrets aren't a balanced army. If the game continues to have little depth like this than many top level players will get bored quickly and the game's popularity will be equal to or less than CnC3 and KW.


Bullshit. It's just as hard to execute a good turret push against a top soviet as it is to stop it.

If allies fail to push hard then soviets will out eco and out tech them and they are screwed.

In our own Alias internal tournament between pretty decent players like Bodom, Dwelf, Boom and myself, Boom is doing fantastic with soviets beating all of us so far. Allies has won versus soviets and vica versa.

I think allies is slightly better on some maps and soviets are better on other maps.

Soviets is all about surviving and getting a huge eco to reach tier 3 and stretch the game to get the higher support powers. Most soviets don't have enough patience like Avilo explained correctly. It's a turtle faction.

Some people really talk a lot of crap tbh with their theory crafted calculations.

None of that actually works out like that in game. Like someone saying that making 4 air units both cancels out. LMAO Allies NEED vindis to make a turret push work. If you make vindis you can't make apollos on the same airfield so making a couple migs forces the allied player to get apollos and thus spamming less mg turrets or less vindis.


I think it's a decent guide. The flak bunkers are pretty good with a huge range. You can also put in less than 5 and then it's still good.

This post has been edited by riz: Feb 24 2009, 22:51 PM

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# 31Alan_Schezar Feb 24 2009, 22:47 PM
QUOTE(WarLock @ Feb 24 2009, 14:17 PM) *

yeahh ? allieds don't need power ore an airfield wacko.gif. Omg this is just so awful, can't see any worse compare anymore




Did you read the last sentence? It read:

"Both Allied and Soviet players build an Airfield with 4 air units, so that cancels out."


My guess is that NO, you didn't read it. Especially considering your phrase:

"can't see any worse compare anymore"


is a grammar nightmare. It's not even a sentence! It's a fragment. tongue.gif

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# 32DiZpoZableHero Feb 25 2009, 00:12 AM
Eh...Soviets have it's own problems riz. Just because the matchup between Allies and Soviets is balanced now, doesn't mean the individual factions are balanced. Certain units are WAY better than other units ATM.

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# 33avilo Feb 25 2009, 02:03 AM
QUOTE(Mystierius @ Feb 24 2009, 19:12 PM) *

Eh...Soviets have it's own problems riz. Just because the matchup between Allies and Soviets is balanced now, doesn't mean the individual factions are balanced. Certain units are WAY better than other units ATM.


um, sva is balanced, so yes, these two individual factions are balanced. And no, certain units are not way better than others atm. There are only a few things that can be argued that are OP, like akulas, MGturrets, and maybe a few others, but I cannot think of anymore off the top of my head.



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# 34Sp3cter Feb 25 2009, 02:27 AM
QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 21:03 PM) *

um, sva is balanced, so yes, these two individual factions are balanced. And no, certain units are not way better than others atm. There are only a few things that can be argued that are OP, like akulas, MGturrets, and maybe a few others, but I cannot think of anymore off the top of my head.


*cough* *cough* magnetic satellite+magnetic singularity *cough*

This post has been edited by Sp3cter: Feb 25 2009, 02:52 AM

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# 35Alan_Schezar Feb 25 2009, 02:49 AM
QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 18:03 PM) *

um, sva is balanced, so yes, these two individual factions are balanced. And no, certain units are not way better than others atm. There are only a few things that can be argued that are OP, like akulas, MGturrets, and maybe a few others, but I cannot think of anymore off the top of my head.




Yuriko... Shoguns...

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# 36DiZpoZableHero Feb 25 2009, 03:11 AM
Omg most stubborn person on the planet...I give up. If you seriously think Allies are a balanced faction, and Soviets are balanced just because they are equally IMBA, than something is wrong with you. If you actually a game where at max 3 different units are used combined with turrets is fun, than you are playing RTS games for the wrong reason.

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# 37avilo Feb 25 2009, 04:50 AM
QUOTE(Mystierius @ Feb 24 2009, 22:11 PM) *

Omg most stubborn person on the planet...I give up. If you seriously think Allies are a balanced faction, and Soviets are balanced just because they are equally IMBA, than something is wrong with you. If you actually a game where at max 3 different units are used combined with turrets is fun, than you are playing RTS games for the wrong reason.


I use most of the units...from both sides...so do other good players...I don't even turret push dude lol. It may be easy to execute in some instances, but it's just as easy to stop if ur good and know how to counter it.

which is why I made this thread...

This post has been edited by avilo: Feb 25 2009, 04:50 AM



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# 38LeOwNzAll Feb 25 2009, 08:58 AM
QUOTE(Alan_Schezar @ Feb 24 2009, 22:20 PM) *

Colors are a good thing, no doubt smilie_naughty.gif thumb.gif
Regarding your MG-Turret push counter, most often the Alled MCV will not turret-push into your base. He'll push to your expansion node, like Maistral always does (although with Soviets). With that, your plan to use a Tesla Coil won't come into play.

Moreover, the long time that it takes micro'd hammers to take out a MG-Turret on Leech Beam is a problem. 'Patience', yes, but while you're waiting on your Hammers, the Allied player is building Refineries and capturing the oil.
This way, the Allied player STILL wins the money game, 4 ore nodes to your 3, and most likely 1-2 Oil Derricks to your none. The Allied player will be short on money early on, while he's going 2 Refineries to the Soviet's 3, but the Soviet is spending much more on defense than the Allied player is spending on offense. For example:
Allies
2 MG Turrets = $1800
7 Javelins = $2800
7 PKs = $1400

Total = $6000


Soviet
1 War Factory = $2000
1 Super Reactor = $1800
3 Hammers = $3000
1 Engineer = $500
1 Bunker = $500
5 Flak Troopers = $1500
3 Bullfrogs = $2700

Total = $12,000

Both Allied and Soviet players build an Airfield with 4 air units, so that cancels out.



Just all right.

Your tech avilo does not work.


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# 39Matiz_pl Feb 25 2009, 08:59 AM
I think replays will be really helpful, I'll try to attach some but I'm not doing too good vs perfectly executed High Mind's turret push.

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# 40Whalecore Feb 25 2009, 12:38 PM
I think we can make on thing clear:
- Turrets are used in other ways than they were originally designed for.

Which is obviously wrong, and should be looked at.

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