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Counter to MGturret push, even in this patch

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# 61B00M Feb 27 2009, 19:39 PM
QUOTE
The #1 change that I would make to make allies war fac BO somewhat viable is to allow vehicles that are locked down by terror drones to unload their passengers.
lol yeah make it even easier to tanyarape bases sleep.gif

And on topic, Mgturretpushes are really boring me atm.. its all that happens lately

This post has been edited by B00M: Feb 27 2009, 19:40 PM

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# 62Stanley223 Feb 28 2009, 15:52 PM
QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
But the fact is, the allied one is stoppable on most maps, and usually if allies goes for a turret push, you can absolutely face rape them because you'll be ahead 1-2 expansions.

"On most maps" is the key. It's really powerful on, say, Industrial to play a normal game and then at some point walk up to your opponent's base and start dropping turrets plus a rax/airfield, no doubt. But on Snowplow or Infinity Isle it's another story altogether, because you've got one short, direct route to the enemy that includes expansions, and on Snowplow you've got garrisons to boot. I'd recommend you do a VOD of the Iaguz vs. ST2 games from the GR.org tourney, and point out what he should have done.

QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
The easiest way to stop his push is with one of the most underused things that soviets have in their arsenal - the flaktrooper bunker.

They're good, definitely, and in my opinion this is the one really useful thing that you put in this post. But:

1. This is why the good pushes start with massive dog spam -- a good Soviet infantry army can cause a world of hurt to the push. If the dogs do their job, the Soviet won't be able to build that engineer until it's too late.

2. This is getting nerfed in the new patch; without the big range increase I suspect you'll be better off just building 3 more flaks. (Of course, with the upcoming reduction in MG damage vs. infantry I suspect that the push will be much more beatable, as an unsupported turret will not be able to pop up near flak troopers.)

3. Walls are nasty.

QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
2) Microing hammer tanks + patience!
Hammer tanks have always had their leech beam available that outranges the MGturret. The key here is microing hammers, while getting either migs/bullfrogs to stop vindicator bombing runs. You usually need both to combat apollos.

Keep in mind that you're expecting a Soviet to build barracks, war factory, super reactor, airfield, bunker, and probably crusher crane (based on the talk of teslas later on), all the while walking around the map eco booming. That's 500 + 2000 + 2000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1500 = 8000 in building, vs. 2-3k in rax/airfields. Then the Soviet will lose several hammer tanks and bullfrogs to vindicator raids and surgical strike -- plus time bomb if the game gets that far, as it's easy to time bomb + surgical strike a group of Soviet WF units that are assaulting a turret -- so we're looking at a few more thousand. Your solution just isn't cost-effective.

QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
When ur hammer tanks have leeched around half health of an MGturret, that is when you change all ur hammers to primary mode and charge the turret/infantry.

I agree, the timing here is very, very precise. But you need to add another factor: the next turret. Even if a Soviet runs in at the right time with the hammers to finish off the first turret with the main guns, if timed incorrectly the next turret will pop up on top of the forward hammers and cause them some serious pain. And once there are two turrets up, you can no longer charge with the main guns and grinder treads.

QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
You need to build up hammer tanks, 4+, and you do that by being PATIENT.

Remember that you're also expecting the Soviet to build bullfrogs out of his WF, and of course with a forward AF those Vindicators will be picking off a few of these hammers. That means that you're talking about a tactic that will take a very long time to put into effect. To be honest with you, it seems to me that if you're suggesting this kind of initial investment it would be just as fast and more effective to go straight to the battle lab and come in with V4, Apoc, and even Kirov since it's immune to Vindicators and support powers.

QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
Yes, a good allies is going to be able to snipe some hammers or bullfrogs here and there, but you as a good soviets will be killing just as many vindicators with good awareness and mig/bullfrog control. It just about evens out, it depends on who micros better, and also on not overextending your hammer tanks.

Well, once you reach that critical mass. Also, the critical mass is higher than in a straight-up fight because frogs/migs have to stand back a bit so they aren't hit by the turret. And, finally, you've somehow got to have money to fund this critical mass while you're spending thousands more than your opponent on buildings.

QUOTE(avilo @ Feb 24 2009, 04:53 AM) *
During the mid-game, when you see the allied MCV coming towards you, you should be macroing walls in L shapes in certain parts of your base.

This is something that I think is useful. I do think that you have to actually get this late in the game first, though. =/

The replay is, well... he let you get 6 refineries before he put even an ounce of pressure on you, and you completely outmicroed him in every dog/bear fight. And it was on a big map. And it was a really late push. Are these the kinds of pushes that people have trouble countering? I mean, even if he had killed your main, you would still have had your con yard and plenty of expansions to support a large army. There just wasn't any danger in this game, so beating the turret push was both easy and a non-issue. Play ST2 on Infinity Isle, BO3.

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# 63ScorpionZero Mar 1 2009, 17:19 PM
i think FlankBunker can only DEF turretPush on some maps, in many maps it can't coz u need to expand to VS allied turret push, and allied player can choose where to PUSH and where to attack then soviet need a lot of FlankBunkers to Def all of his expansion and main base, that cost A LOT, FlankBunker is not so cheap. FlankBunker is really good vs Tank and Air but so weak VS infantry because 1-2 conscripts in bunker help nothing vs infantry. While you're busy placing expensive FlankBunker or costly Tesla coil+some Bullfrog to DEF his incoming MCV&Vindi, your opponent might not need to atk your bunker or tower right away, he may use group of Vindis to ATK your eco or power or something else. I mean turret push is counterable but you need much more money and micro to DEF while your opponent has an easy way to ATK you and he could spend money+micro on something else to beat you.

Anyway i have some question about Eni's Bunker.
- Can PK, conscript and IW use their secondary ability to clear Bunker?
- Can my opponent garrison infantry in my Bunker if there's no infantry in it?

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# 64Crunk 8D Mar 1 2009, 17:25 PM
Nope engy bunker cannot be cleared, it has to be killed, and your enemy can not take an empty one

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# 65rockwood Mar 1 2009, 17:26 PM
your bunker once deployed can either be destroyed or repacked, if it is re packed you get an engineer, i dont think enemy forcces can go in it

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# 66Dr. Shotgun Mar 1 2009, 17:28 PM
Engibunker rocks if you can get one up.

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# 67Steelx01 Mar 1 2009, 23:13 PM
QUOTE(Crunk 8D @ Mar 1 2009, 18:25 PM) *

Nope engy bunker cannot be cleared, it has to be killed, and your enemy can not take an empty one


It can be cleared by molotovs.

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# 68avilo Mar 2 2009, 00:00 AM
u can repack it wtf? o.o?



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# 69rockwood Mar 2 2009, 00:05 AM
im pretty sure, allied engieer can repack their med tent

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# 70Steelx01 Mar 2 2009, 00:09 AM
QUOTE(rockwood @ Mar 1 2009, 18:26 PM) *

your bunker once deployed can either be destroyed or repacked, if it is re packed you get an engineer, i dont think enemy forcces can go in it


Either you're mixing up the allied med tent with the soviet engi bunker, or you're on crack. Because the soviet engi bunker cant be 'repacked' you can build as many as you like with one engi.

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# 71rockwood Mar 2 2009, 00:30 AM
haha oh sorry

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# 72Keato Mar 2 2009, 15:10 PM
alan schezar your posts are so funny haha

in theory, theory > practice, but in practice, practice > theory.


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# 73Gos_ultima Mar 3 2009, 18:42 PM
Um attacking with leech beam is not classed as micro



and um bunkers fail LOL


no allied noobs got let ur flak's bust up there MGT's. They gona use peacekeepers to clear it out LOL




try again dude

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# 74bubba Mar 4 2009, 01:31 AM
I saw someone beat Allied turret push with 1% completed/paused super reactors (right in front of the turrets) and out-of-turret-range twinblades to force-fire on the super reactors. Nice move, as long as AA is there.

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# 75Moblin_DK Mar 4 2009, 08:57 AM
QUOTE(Gos_ultima @ Mar 3 2009, 19:42 PM) *

Um attacking with leech beam is not classed as micro
and um bunkers fail LOL
no allied noobs got let ur flak's bust up there MGT's. They gona use peacekeepers to clear it out LOL
try again dude

Wow page 4 before a post that I would classify as "no merit at all" in an Avilo thread. I'm genuinely surprised (granted the one above you was the first one but this is directed at the OP).

Read the thread before you post and you'll come off as a much smarter man. PK can't clear a bunker. So yes what Avilo said makes sense and a lot of it at that.
Bunkers may lose their value with 1.08 and the lower range but in 1.07 they're apparently good (never seen one used before today).
Also before declaring something as "fail" please take a look at the entirety of the post instead of picking out what you think is the weakest point and use it as justification for flame baiting another member.

Forums become much nicer places when doing things like that.


@Avilo
Good constructive thread which has the potential to help people if they're open minded enough to learn from it. Love to see much more of this form you smile.gif

This post has been edited by Moblin_DK: Mar 4 2009, 09:01 AM

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# 76ScorpionZero Mar 4 2009, 16:30 PM
can Soviet's Toxin protocol clear Engy Bunker?

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# 77oscarg Mar 4 2009, 16:35 PM
molotovs can do it too.

the reason peacekeepers and imperial warriors cant clear garrisons is because the bunker cant have enemy infantry inside.
so its basicly like this: when you order an banzai or shiled into a bunker, he wants to garrison it however infatnry is blocking it.
but... because the bunker cant have enemy infantry the peacekeepers cant even get inside to do something.

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