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Mordor vs Elves

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# 41Platino Feb 11 2020, 20:23 PM
QUOTE(SeaKnightofEa @ Feb 7 2020, 22:43 PM) *

Oh wow your right, I never tried to dive archers with 10 horse battalions against a sea of porcupine pikeman. This thought changes my entire idea on the matchup and how its played. wow. I guess I won't buy any horses then since not even 10 battalions can do anything against a hyperbolic setup of pike and archers. I guess I better sell my 3250 cost of horses to my fort because at least I could get some value back there.



Ye
imo the problem is here

Do u remember in old days all players did cav.. now often u can see games without cav.



pikemen OP vs cav -> peaples spam archers -> faction with best archers is the best -> ELVES

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# 42brabox Feb 11 2020, 20:47 PM
Like the old flanking system was fun. Only onhost players could scum around and kill pikes who were harassing by timing their tramples just right.

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# 43SeaKnightofEa Feb 11 2020, 22:32 PM
looks in lost sarcasm

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# 44Ab3r` Feb 12 2020, 13:01 PM
QUOTE(Platino @ Feb 11 2020, 21:23 PM) *

Ye
imo the problem is here

Do u remember in old days all players did cav.. now often u can see games without cav.
pikemen OP vs cav -> peaples spam archers -> faction with best archers is the best -> ELVES


Old CW days involved UR which meant you could gamble on cav easily, nobody started creeping apart from dwarves so Cav was a really good early game option

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# 45brabox Feb 12 2020, 13:44 PM
People seem to have this idea that if the enemy is amassing archers and pikes that somehow you should build cav.

That has never made sense, not in any patch. Because a big clump of archers and pikes of 500CP will always beat 500CP of cav. And they cost less.

Pikes are supposed to protect archers and swords from cav. That's their main purpose. The obvious pike/archer deathball strategy is countered by having good map presence (1 death ball can not maintain map control) and thus CP and many PBs to quickly replace your army. You spam sword/archer vs pike archer and eventually you'll win if you have better eco and enough PBs.

You can also have some cav that will go harass while you fight the army and they come back to chase down retreating archers. That's particularly good vs elf cause they often go back to regen. If you time it well, you should be able to clean out those pesky mirks/loriens that want to get back to their mirror of Galadriel.

You don't EVER go and fight archer/pikes with cav. It's too finnicky (waste of APM) and risky and you'll make mistakes and get frustrated. Plus: it doesn't work offhost.

Additionally: part of cav's value is forcing pikes. If the opponent is already making solely pikes, cav lose this value.

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# 46SeaKnightofEa Feb 12 2020, 15:53 PM
Also, if you actually want to fight the pike archer deathball, using catapaults for crying out loud alongside threatening cav to maintain tight ball pressure. Next you use your own group of archers to just shoot their pikes while you bait in defensive stance horses.

If you are mordor and like to say BuT mY CaV SuCkS then use a mountain trolls rock ability to cc the better archers, shoot them, and use cav to clean up.

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# 47SeaKnightofEa Feb 12 2020, 15:54 PM
QUOTE
Old CW days involved UR which meant you could gamble on cav easily, nobody started creeping apart from dwarves so Cav was a really good early game option

Also what does UR stand for?

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# 48Andybear Feb 12 2020, 17:08 PM
QUOTE(SeaKnightofEa @ Feb 12 2020, 11:54 AM) *

Also what does UR stand for?

Unrevealed Random.

Old school cav rush/spam also benefitted from weaker FoL rb's. With decent micro and some extra attention you could usually trade half a battalion or cav for a few rb kills even while pike harried them. You can still do this less effectively with most cavalry but the pp trade off is generally a poor trade for the aggressor.

Only Knights of Gondor are tanky/damaging enough of the tier 1 cavalry in current years to do this. Wolf riders kinda too since they auto regen.

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# 49SeaKnightofEa Feb 12 2020, 18:05 PM
Wolf riders aren't very good for those deep dive rb kills that gondor knights can do though, but wolf riders do very good job scouting and controlling enemy borders simply by existing.

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# 50Andybear Feb 12 2020, 19:40 PM
QUOTE(SeaKnightofEa @ Feb 12 2020, 14:05 PM) *

Wolf riders aren't very good for those deep dive rb kills that gondor knights can do though, but wolf riders do very good job scouting and controlling enemy borders simply by existing.

True.

I think the point I'm meandering around is that cavalry units usability in early game is sharply defined by their survivability. Survivability not just meaning straight tankiness but meaning the amount of reliable damage the unit can deal before it becomes useless. This includes damage done after the unit has regenerated after one sortie.

The reason H Lancers feel bad[sometimes] isnt because they're really that much weaker than other cav, it's just that you have no wells so they take attrition damage from normal use and then become basically useless as a partial battalion.

I often get banners early for this reason and it feels very good but it's a tough investment in close games.

M trolls fill the similiar roles as the Lancers but can regen which dramatically raises their usability.

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# 51SeaKnightofEa Feb 12 2020, 19:54 PM
That and the added 10% health for each level helps. That's why factions with leadership with horses are pretty good simply because as they are guaranteed extra defenses, they get the now rare buff of 50% more experience points. The only cav units that level off one creep is spiderlings and wargpacks, which is why those units can be so strong because they reach that strong level 2 respawning perks. Also extra health and damage.

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# 52trucky Feb 16 2020, 06:59 AM
QUOTE(brabox @ Feb 12 2020, 14:44 PM) *


Pikes are supposed to protect archers and swords from cav. That's their main purpose. The obvious pike/archer deathball strategy is countered by having good map presence (1 death ball can not maintain map control) and thus CP and many PBs to quickly replace your army. You spam sword/archer vs pike archer and eventually you'll win if you have better eco and enough PBs.



actually pike+archer beats sword+archer because of porcupine formation and RC


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# 53Member 378209 Feb 16 2020, 07:42 AM
QUOTE(trucky @ Feb 16 2020, 06:59 AM) *

actually pike+archer beats sword+archer because of porcupine formation and RC


That is BIGGEST problem of this game globaly, that archers + pikes beat swords+archers.

Also pikes in porcupine stay in circle , and swordman kiling offen only one by one pikeman , because pikenam formation is circle , and swodrman are in square, geometricaly - they common clash point is ONE POINT. While swords vs swords , or pikes (without Porcupine) vs swords - clash point is whole straight line.

from history , as logical fact .. swordman with shield/heavy armour should tank arrows longer and more effective then Pikes without shields with long spear.

in any game , based on history - exp = TotalWars games - was pikes most vulnerable vs archers/slingers/speat-throwers.

what about take out all armour bonus from porcupine(
respectively it ll got same % as deff stance ?) and give all swordsman 5-15% more resistance vs arrows ?
this fix archers+pikes+ siedge too i think.

new meta ll be swords+archers and some pikes vs potencionaly cav ? - but not only pikes , because they ll lose vs swords easily.

MOST IMPORTANT:
pikes + archers should lose vs swords+archers
sword+ archers should lose vs cav+swords
cav+swords should lose vs pikes + swords
pikes+swords should lose vs swords+archers...

that will be circle , everything ll have counter play.

Nowdays are pikes + archers deffinitly best combo for any race in lategame. (Except goblins)

This post has been edited by Docent_Rotwk: Feb 16 2020, 09:39 AM

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# 54brabox Feb 16 2020, 09:46 AM
QUOTE(trucky @ Feb 16 2020, 07:59 AM) *

actually pike+archer beats sword+archer because of porcupine formation and RC

First of all, that elves specifically, who have very flimsy swordsmen.
Secondly, the swords win in that replay except for one time.
Thirdly, this was way worse before armorfix so Iím not sure why at least 3 or so people are acting like this is suddenly such a big problem when actually weíve been improving over time.
(Iíve heard this pike/archer complaining from many people, but I think in gp 1v1s itís simply not accurate)
I mean, there was a time in 2.02 when porcupine alone gave +300% armor. And even then, people knew how to play around it.

On top of all this, porcupine makes your guys stationary, which always allows swordsmen to win the micro battle. As the swordsmen player, you can simply use your archers to target the opponent's archers, and the pikes will be powerless to stop it. Unless they move out of porcupine, but then your swordsmen will kill their archers and you're left with swords vs pikes at the end.



This post has been edited by brabox: Feb 16 2020, 10:00 AM

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# 55trucky Feb 16 2020, 17:12 PM
i dont know why u cant accept that there is only 1 way to play elves and that is to spam archer + 1 or 2 pike units, defend with statue until u have deathball, park deathball outside enemy PBs and build ent, use mist and let ent kill fort. and u have to stop saying that the other player should be doing X or Y or Z to win vs this strategy because tbh no other strategy of any faction can win any matchup so frequently with no counterplay.

QUOTE(brabox @ Feb 16 2020, 10:46 AM) *

First of all, that elves specifically, who have very flimsy swordsmen.

The whole point of this thread + one of the main problems with 2.02 right now... is ELVES.

QUOTE(brabox @ Feb 16 2020, 10:46 AM) *

Secondly, the swords win in that replay except for one time.

No they do not. It is extremely close every single time with just 1 or 2 guys from the LA unit surviving. When everything is RC'd the pike+archer DESTROYS the LW+LA. And realistically in a game there are gonna be more occasions when you are gonna buff your units than not.

QUOTE(brabox @ Feb 16 2020, 10:46 AM) *

Thirdly, this was way worse before armorfix so Iím not sure why at least 3 or so people are acting like this is suddenly such a big problem when actually weíve been improving over time.
(Iíve heard this pike/archer complaining from many people, but I think in gp 1v1s itís simply not accurate)
I mean, there was a time in 2.02 when porcupine alone gave +300% armor. And even then, people knew how to play around it.

I dont give a fuck about how you balanced the game over the last 3 years because you didnt have anyone sensible like me kicking up a fuss about it and u make any changes some robotic german guy said to make so u ended up with a totally broken faction that is anti-fun to play against and a lot of boring things happening in the game (towers, fewer build orders, arrow volley / longshot, statues, siege meta, archer/pike spam, etc). Versions like 2.02e had Elves an amazing playstyle as I have said why a ton of times but mainly because LWs had more impact and because of unrevealed random.

QUOTE(brabox @ Feb 16 2020, 10:46 AM) *

On top of all this, porcupine makes your guys stationary, which always allows swordsmen to win the micro battle. As the swordsmen player, you can simply use your archers to target the opponent's archers, and the pikes will be powerless to stop it. Unless they move out of porcupine, but then your swordsmen will kill their archers and you're left with swords vs pikes at the end.

except you can't win like that because if u do that your archers will run all the way up to the other archers before firing because the game mechanics are busted so u cant just say "this will win" u have to prove it.

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# 56Docent_Rotwk Feb 16 2020, 18:11 PM
I finally got it. Hot FIX ll not happen .

Soo only one question : " Brabox playing rotwk? / His GR name ? / ... or just developing ?

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# 57Ab3r` Feb 16 2020, 19:36 PM
QUOTE(trucky @ Feb 16 2020, 18:12 PM) *

I dont give a fuck about how you balanced the game over the last 3 years because you didnt have anyone sensible like me kicking up a fuss about it and u make any changes some robotic german guy said to make so u ended up with a totally broken faction that is anti-fun to play against and a lot of boring things happening in the game (towers, fewer build orders, arrow volley / longshot, statues, siege meta, archer/pike spam, etc). Versions like 2.02e had Elves an amazing playstyle as I have said why a ton of times but mainly because LWs had more impact and because of unrevealed random.


Thats the chuckle I needed on a hungover Sunday, 9/10 read please spew more.

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# 58brabox Feb 17 2020, 07:23 AM
QUOTE(Docent_Rotwk @ Feb 16 2020, 08:42 AM) *

That is BIGGEST problem of this game globaly, that archers + pikes beat swords+archers.

While this isnít always true, youíre right this is weirdly how Rotwk works (especially in late game). Weíve often sparred about how to make swordsmen better without completely turning the game upside down, but never really got to a great answer.

That said, this topic is about a specific MU. Weíve been derailing it a lot already so I think itís best to open up a new topic about swordsmen vs pikemen.

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# 59brabox Feb 17 2020, 07:33 AM
QUOTE(trucky @ Feb 16 2020, 18:12 PM) *

i dont know why u cant accept that there is only 1 way to play elves and that is to spam archer + 1 or 2 pike units, defend with statue until u have deathball, park deathball outside enemy PBs and build ent, use mist and let ent kill fort. and u have to stop saying that the other player should be doing X or Y or Z to win vs this strategy because tbh no other strategy of any faction can win any matchup so frequently with no counterplay.

You need to learn how to have a discussion.
I never said elves were or werenít OP. I never said you could realistically counter the elf play you just described. I said that in general, you canít counter pike+archer with horses.
You keep dragging in a gazillion issues and random conspiracies about German robots. I mean seriouslywhatís going on inside your brain?
Onhost elves were always a problem. Go find some of your precious 2.02e replays and guess what youíll find? A Rotwk expert complaining about elves and a comment saying: True dat... If u get to play vs onhost elf in late game just quit smile.gif

What keeps happening whenever we have a discussion on a particular point is that you canít properly back it up. And then you assume I automatically am your enemy or somehow will just disagree with you for the sake of disagreeing. But everyone who knows me will tell you I hate onhost elf as much as the next guy and the big overhauls Iíve pushed (exp system and armoefix), I thought would nerf elf.

What I donít like doing is jumping to conclusions or onto bandwagons. Buffing haradrim lancers doesnít seem like the best way forward. Thatís all Iíve said on this topic.

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