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Rise of the Witch King

When is a 4v4 good?

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# 1MauH˙R Oct 6 2017, 17:13 PM
I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this:

When do you think a 4v4 game was worth going through the struggles of getting it going?
What does have to happen so you and/or the majority of the players in it can say it was an enjoyable game?
Does it have to go into lategame or can also a 10-15min game be a good one?
Do crazy basetrades on opposite sides have to occur or a comeback after one player lost his fort?

Also, in your experience, how often does one of the many 4v4s you play (or attempt to get started) turn into one of those memorable games that make you wanna play it again? And would you say those few good ones are worth the many fails and one-sided games?



The following is just me rambling over 4v4s a bit:
Spoiler

I'm curious because over the last year or so I observed a kind of crazy tendency in myself and often even more so in others that just seems to make us willing to sacrifice hours just to hopefully get to one of those memorable good 4v4s.
Not only that though, I guess a lot of people in the community also seem to prefer 4v4s, even if it involves tons of waiting-time, because they get to play the game type where the least possible amount of pressure is on them. This is not an accusation btw, it's just why 4v4s have gotten so popular.
I also think that 2-3 years ago, when the 4v4s have started to get so popular (mostly because a group of 2.01 players that have moved over to 2.02 at that time have started to host them), the 4v4s just were more enjoyable for some reason. Maybe it was because of different metas and playstyles, maybe because more good 1v1/2v2 players were active and started playing it too.
And because some older players still have the memory of these times where the average amount 4v4s was higher quality, they are still willing to sacrifice a lot of time to try and get that.

Again, the appeal of 4v4s is very easy to understand:
  • You get to play with the maximum amount of players, which can mean funny chat and mates playing together as they want
  • You dont get punished nearly as much for trying out unrealistic stuff and dont die early just because you're a beginner
  • Beginners themselves get to play with better players and it's not big deal if they drag the team down, it's a way for all players to play something together
  • The games usually drag on a bit longer and people get to see the more "epic" side of the game I suppose (25ers, high level abilities, all heroes etc.)
BUT, seeing as a ridiculously high amount of 4v4s keeps failing for multiple reasons lately and the few 4v4s that actually get to be played out are mostly not super enjoyable (maybe it's subjective but the older players will propably confirm that they used to be more fun), I had to ask myself if it wouldnt be better for the state of the game if we drop them for at least a little bit.

I also know there have always been people who said that 4v4s were "destroying" the game or something and that CW partly died out cause of that, but at this point it really is about spending your gaming time a bit more wisely imo.
A good example for how 4v4s can just wear you down in your will to play were Destroyer's streams I think (and he might confirm this). I remember watching his last bunch of announced livestreams first half of this year and how he and propably everyone else got increasingly frustrated with the amounts of fails and bad games they had. Yet some weird combination of the 4 points above still makes us try a 4v4 over and over again just to get a game that is a bit similar to the few really good 4v4s that we had. I guess something in our brain keeps telling us that it's worth trying.
After a while D would also just go back to a 2v2 (or even 1v1s lately, respect D!) just to get some game going.
I think we should all do the same more often and tone it down to more 2v2s or even only 3v3s. The games are more likely to start and finish normally and it produces more replays since players have to split up for more games.

And last but not least: Yes, 4v4s will keep your skill and understanding of the game relatively low or at least slow down your learning process a lot and also cloud your understanding of balance, certain situations and interactions. That's no secret. You can count that as the other reason why to stop doing 4v4s for a while would be good for the game. But as we all know, sometimes you just wanna get home and spam some Rohirrim or whatever without losing all your eco to two pike battalions.

Also what if I told you I wrote this entire thing here while waiting for a 4v4 to fill? (I didnt but it would be funny)


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# 2bushit Oct 6 2017, 18:38 PM
hmm ill start doing forward stables on nandu again

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# 3MattysMirks Oct 6 2017, 18:40 PM
Interesting thoughts mau...

Was thinking it over and think there are a few reasons I love 4v4 which you've touched on already.

1) you can build a bigger army, more heroes and get more kills. Which is why i probably play elves all the time as I like the slow methodical play.

2) The people - my 4v4 addiction came in the days of me, you, blubb, aleks, onkel, Rene, dani, Hawkeye etc where it meant alot if we won and it always meant we had a decent level of play.

3) I don't play as much any more and so being able to hop into a 3v3 and 4v4 and do well is more satisfying.

4) I'm social so like a good chat and was more fun doing it in a big lobby!

That being said I could deffo get into clanwars, especially 2v2 but without it I would just prefer to spam 3v3 and 4v4 for the ease. We have some good 2v2 games from time to time usually when i get bored of nabby 4v4s. Hope that's helpful!

And for it to be a good 4v4 it needs to be fairly balanced and probably around the 30-45 min mark with some good back and forth. But the biggest thing for me is a good and competitive lobby where either team could genuinely win and came down to who played better in that specific game.

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# 4MauH˙R Oct 6 2017, 18:46 PM
QUOTE(MattysMirks @ Oct 6 2017, 18:40 PM) *

2) The people - my 4v4 addiction came in the days of me, you, blubb, aleks, onkel, Rene, dani, Hawkeye etc where it meant alot if we won and it always meant we had a decent level of play.

Imo we had more fun back then than nowadays, even tho it was 2.01 and Nandu. Somehow all the broken shit almost balanced eachother out on this map. Everybody's conn was also good and the hosts more consequent with naps tongue.gif

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This post has been edited by MauH˙R: Oct 6 2017, 19:06 PM


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# 5bushit Oct 6 2017, 18:51 PM
QUOTE(MauH˙R @ Oct 6 2017, 13:46 PM) *

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This post has been edited by bushit: Oct 6 2017, 19:11 PM

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# 6Thoon Oct 6 2017, 20:03 PM
It's an interesting trend and not one limited to RotWk. Multiplayer games in general shifted towards higher player count modes within the past decade. That's not to say they didn't exist before (8-64 players being common), but can you think of a recent, widely popular 1v1/2v2 focused game? Sure, you can set up lobbies for them, but party games are the comfortable standard now.

As for why, I think you touched on good points: cushioned responsibility for win/loss; a wider social platform; higher sense of chaos and excitement. All those those things contribute to a good 4v4. Imbalanced teams make for the bad ones, where the players are often unfamiliar with each other.

This post has been edited by Thoon: Oct 6 2017, 20:08 PM

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# 7Jaberwaukee Oct 6 2017, 20:20 PM
Never

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# 8TheDestroyer001 Oct 7 2017, 04:12 AM
QUOTE(Thoon @ Oct 6 2017, 12:03 PM) *

As for why, I think you touched on good points: cushioned responsibility for win/loss; a wider social platform; higher sense of chaos and excitement. All those those things contribute to a good 4v4. Imbalanced teams make for the bad ones, where the players are often unfamiliar with each other.


I'd second this as it states pretty well why people like 4v4.

I do love a good 4v4 but I would agree they are played too often and most the time not worth the effort. Balancing teams and failing to do so is a real ball ache. Also lag and d/c is much more prevalent in this game type.

On my streams I mostly do 4v4 to get as many people to be able to play as possible, not necessarily because it is my preferred game type but it is the game type where I have to play less serious, pay less attention to the match and can get somewhat carried while I talk and mess about. When recording vids the same applies but I normally play with a group of friends so we want to be on the same team and have to play big game to do so. Just more fun that way for us.

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# 9Turgon Oct 7 2017, 07:11 AM
for me a good 4v4 happens when 8 players go to ingame lobby, 4 leave couse of wrong version or dc and it finally turns into 2v2 xd that are allways good games!
sorry for that troll posts, its offtopic, but it kinda shows my opinion about 4v4 in general, hope u dont mind mauhur... wasnt meant bad

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# 10brabox Oct 7 2017, 11:27 AM
Good 4v4 happens if:
a) the majority of the players are decent 1v1/2v2 players
b) teams coordinate reasonably
c) lag is kept to a minimum

I don't add the "teams are balanced" because that's a given. You need that in 1v1 and 2v2 as well. In fact, getting balancing teams in 4v4 is per definition more likely because you have more to mix and match. If 1/4 of the players is a noob, you won't get a balanced 2v2, but you could still do 4v4.

Anyway those conditions are all pretty rare, and in my experience 5% of the 4v4 qualify as "good" for me and I tend to avoid them. You often spend way too long setting up the game, and you end up wasting 30 min on 20 mins of gameplay that would've been 15 min without the lag. That's a "play density" of 50%.

In addition: the more lag, the less macro matters. You can have good APM and multi-tasking, but if the game happens at 75% speed, everyone can macro manage better so your advantage is reduced.

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# 11Muadd Oct 7 2017, 12:00 PM
What makes a good 4v4 game. Me in it. When do I watch 4v4 games? Never.

I like them because its a game mod that reqs most speed. And because im the best 4v4 player ever touched the series. Bye

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# 12Mako Oct 7 2017, 12:22 PM
I totally agree with Thoon.

Rotwk now isn't a competitive game but a forfun one. Sc2 and Aoe2 are the standards of RTS imo.

We need at least a good platform to compete:
1) no offhost lag
2) CW good report system

This post has been edited by Mako: Oct 7 2017, 22:19 PM

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# 13sleeper Oct 7 2017, 13:59 PM
when muadd rage quits within 5 mins because he gets doubled.

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# 14Ab3r` Oct 7 2017, 16:41 PM
The best 4v4 games are when you know all the players, Brabox says balance is a given but I would say over half the time I have no idea of the skill level of the players in my lobby.

I don't mind playing with noobs as long as they listen, it's the new players who ignore any advice and do something rogue that annoys me.

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# 15brabox Oct 7 2017, 16:47 PM
QUOTE(Ab3r` @ Oct 7 2017, 17:41 PM) *

The best 4v4 games are when you know all the players, Brabox says balance is a given but I would say over half the time I have no idea of the skill level of the players in my lobby.

I mean to say: I don't have to mention "balanced teams" as a prerequisite because that's obvious. Of course you need balanced teams, and you may not always have them.

But of course, there are many different ways to construct teams in a 4v4, so it's more likely there's a balanced option than in smaller game modes.

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# 16TheRanger_ Oct 9 2017, 05:14 AM
I've played very few 4v4 games but I would have to say the best are when you and a bunch of friends just say let's kill an hour or two and have a kickass time. Playing with new players is always fun too and that's how fellowships grow.

Even if teams are a little unbalanced or I get doubled etc it doesn't matter to me, just love playing this awesome game with people who love it as much as I do.

Spoiler

Also, is this a bad time to roll out a new 4v4? Maybe tongue.gif


This post has been edited by brabox: Oct 9 2017, 09:16 AM

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