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# 1krew Mar 18 2021, 18:29 PM
After hours of rework and testing, I have nearly perfected every official map in CCG. Included in the map pack is a brand new 8 player official map best played with 4v4 and 2v2v2v2 Called 'Sand Quarry'. For those who gave me feed back and tested it, I have taken it seriously and thanks to you, I have corrected previous version. Now, all of the maps have great balance.

Goals of this map pack include:

-Better balance for all 3 factions.
-Easy to understand layout.
-Bugs and map imbalances.
-Unit pathing and flow though out the map.
-A well designed middle with the goal of it being the focal point of expansion.
-The perfect amount of money on the map dependent on the size of the map.
-Ease of building placement on expansions.

Notable Changes include:

-TF and FA can properly play 4v4
-Fallen Empire is better balanced for difficult match ups, including USA armies
-All maps have a fairly placed secondary income source for better balance.
-Expansion is fairly placed
-TD has a balanced top vs bottom set up.
-Armored Furry is better balanced for USA.
-Whiteout is a much better fit for 4v4 and 2v2v2v2




Attached File Official_Maps_Updated.zip
Size: 5.65mb
Number of downloads: 13
Player Name Side Team



-edit-

Ignore the vendetta map. There is a different version we will use for tournaments.

This post has been edited by krew: Mar 18 2021, 23:52 PM

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# 2ScOtSmAn Mar 18 2021, 19:03 PM
Nice work krew, will check these out tonight biggrin.gif check your discord when you can wub.gif

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# 3Murder- Mar 19 2021, 11:37 AM
I'm afraid some of these map reworks will boost USA too much. If USA gets a free pass through the early game, they get overpowered very fast. (like your new tournament tundra) It also fucks over UvG by a lot.

Personally I'm going to use the new maps and reworked Winter Wolf. The others are better as classic maps made by EA. I don' think we should use too many newly updated maps at once. Also I'm not allowing them for CW yet. They need to be tested and evaluated by the community first. (voted afterwards)

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# 4ScOtSmAn Mar 19 2021, 11:51 AM
Iíve not played them yet except armoured fury, what areas do you think are gonna make USA op? Krews already stated heís not looking to replace maps simply enhance some to give other options. Iíd love to see him go wild with world builder though and come up with something completely different! Think he has a really good understanding of the game and could make some amazing maps down the line that could be used for some fun tournaments biggrin.gif

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# 5Murder- Mar 19 2021, 15:49 PM
QUOTE(ScOtSmAn @ Mar 19 2021, 13:51 PM) *

I’ve not played them yet except armoured fury, what areas do you think are gonna make USA op? Krews already stated he’s not looking to replace maps simply enhance some to give other options. I’d love to see him go wild with world builder though and come up with something completely different! Think he has a really good understanding of the game and could make some amazing maps down the line that could be used for some fun tournaments biggrin.gif

New Tournament Tundra f.e.

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# 6krew Mar 19 2021, 17:09 PM
QUOTE(Murder- @ Mar 19 2021, 05:37 AM) *

I'm afraid some of these map reworks will boost USA too much. If USA gets a free pass through the early game, they get overpowered very fast. (like your new tournament tundra) It also fucks over UvG by a lot.

Personally I'm going to use the new maps and reworked Winter Wolf. The others are better as classic maps made by EA. I don' think we should use too many newly updated maps at once. Also I'm not allowing them for CW yet. They need to be tested and evaluated by the community first. (voted afterwards)


I think 2 glad vs two usa is fairly balanced in the new maps. Good team work and TTs. Perhaps even dozer hunts can give usa real problem. Further more, gla expands better than usa and can get money easier. It really the search and destroy that makes that MU difficult. But a nice TT counters that.
QUOTE(ScOtSmAn @ Mar 19 2021, 05:51 AM) *

Iíve not played them yet except armoured fury, what areas do you think are gonna make USA op? Krews already stated heís not looking to replace maps simply enhance some to give other options. Iíd love to see him go wild with world builder though and come up with something completely different! Think he has a really good understanding of the game and could make some amazing maps down the line that could be used for some fun tournaments biggrin.gif


Check out the new 8 player map. Tell me what ya think

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# 7ScOtSmAn Apr 6 2021, 07:01 AM
Been trying them 1v1 maps out

-Final crusade, Yeah actually nice changes, really change the dynamics of the map!
-Alpine, yeah not bad though alpine is another map that was already good balance The supplies might upset that a bit needs more testing.
-TD, I think would've been better with the oils remaining more central. The supplies in middle is better, and fixing the main supplies is also good.
-Desert Fury, Not a fan of oils at base, This was a map I always found lots of fun to play and fairly well-balanced.
-SE, I wasn't a fan of with oils at the base, never liked that. The idea of moving the starting points is good though, it's maybe all you really need to move actually.
- Silent river, was perfect so I was never going to like any changes to that! I think the extra supplies tips it in favour of China, they'll easily now be able to get 3 supplies up and spam 100 migs and dominate the map.
- SS, Not a fan of the supply movement, I'm not sure changing something a major as supplies is really needed here.
-Wasteland W, Again oils in base, the map was another one that didn't really need such major changes if any but like the rest can be fun to try them out and see how games turn out.
-Winter W, Yeah ok can see what you are trying here, i think this map needs some big testing though.

Some maps like SE, Winter, TD, FC we could actually replace the official maps with here. With a little more work and polish! TD, move the oils back, FC looks good needs tested but actually looks more fun now, SE maybe move the oils back to the less defendable areas and then we can test them all and they could actually be good improvements on the official maps.

- Wipeout looks fun but not had enough players on to try yet tongue.gif

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# 8Murder- Apr 6 2021, 11:11 AM
Most of the maps really didn't need a rework. Some maps have the same thing society is nowadays: ''renew/rework to renew/rework - just to be 'innovative' '' While in reality there were only a few maps that actually need it. Which are: Final Crusade, maybe Sand Serpent symmetry. Winter wolf is meh OK. I don't share the opinion most people have about the Winter Wolf middle supplies. To me it just a form of adaptation.

What is Whipeout?

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# 9ScOtSmAn Apr 6 2021, 12:52 PM
or whiteout? the 8 player one.... lol




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# 10trve^viking Apr 6 2021, 14:43 PM
1.to me the maps dont need a big fix cause they are good as they are,there are a few spots that could be adjusted, like for example some terrain level at supply spots etc. but overall its ok.

2. the map pool got different styles which forces you to switch the strat/bo (except gatth mellow.gif ) sometimes it favors an army over another but thats tough to prevent and its more or less balanced over the whole map pool.

that china can do a bit more and is tougher to beat is a problem of the game itself,not so much of the maps.

3. imo if you make adjustments to the map you should keep the core idea of it in mind,for example the idea of desert fury is that you need to fight for the oil in middle and therefore move out of your base,if the opponent manages to get all 4 oils you got a problem. (or you decide to ignore it and rush his base. tongue.gif )
at your version that idea is gone, with the 2 oils in the base there is no need to fight for the oil in middle.

at alpine assault the idea is,that you need to fight for the hills,in the original version you can win the game if you have the hills even if your opponent kills the base, in the new version it shifts more to 2 supplies + oil in base.
also cars play a big role there gla can stop a lot of attacks from china with cars, i think down spot had 4 if you do it right you could kill the wf with it. the other way around china and usa have to counter the cars, that part is gone without any reason?

4. my advice would be to not replace/update the old maps like that but instead you could give your version a new name.
that way we would not have a discussion about what version of the map to use but new maps to play on.

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# 11Murder- Apr 8 2021, 16:47 PM
I don't know what you were thinking with the updated Silent River. Horrible map. Horribly balanced. The original is a million times better. I think someone needs to teach you the basics of China vs USA for example.

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# 12ScOtSmAn Apr 8 2021, 17:43 PM
Viking and I played the updated FC and it was decent tongue.gif think it's far better than the original actually!

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# 13Murder- Apr 8 2021, 20:03 PM
Final Crusade was brilliantly made by Krew! But so far it's pretty much the only map that I've come across that is actually a improvement compared to the old one. Heartland Shield maybe too. HS needs further testing.

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# 14squaak Apr 10 2021, 17:53 PM
Nice initiative Krew ! Well done.
It would be best to test all these new maps in a specific tournament.
For example a round robin tournament between a few participants spread over a few weeks with BOAM in a row.
Of course it would be just for fun cause we don't know yet if this would be fully balanced.

QUOTE(Murder- @ Apr 6 2021, 13:11 PM) *

Most of the maps really didn't need a rework. Some maps have the same thing society is nowadays: ''renew/rework to renew/rework - just to be 'innovative' '' While in reality there were only a few maps that actually need it. Which are: Final Crusade, maybe Sand Serpent symmetry. Winter wolf is meh OK. I don't share the opinion most people have about the Winter Wolf middle supplies. To me it just a form of adaptation.

No, I don't think so.
Most of the official 1v1 maps sucks and are very poorly balanced, with even great disadvantages between the top and bottom spot, so even mirror games would be unbalanced on some maps !
Imo your opinion is biased here cause you think about these maps as a GLA player.

In my opinion, the disadvantages of the current official maps are the following, considering equal skilled players :
- Alpine Assault : GLA map obviously with all the cars and only 1 supply in base. Other armies stand absolutly no chance at all. Also very bad for UvC, it's nearly impossible to get any money as USA so you have to go for all in strats and very short games.
- Desert Fury : CHINA map. Very open and it's all about the 4 oils. Only an army with a very strong eco at start and a cheap brut force would prevail. No way to really stop China getting more money on this map imo.
And 99 % of the times, money makes the win.
- Final Crusade : USA map. Much easy money in base, oils, small entrances.
One of the rare one ! That's why nobody really liked it lol.
But bottom spot >> top spot.
- Heartland Shield : GLA map imo, just cause of the cars.
Also UvC is not really pleasant to play there.
Sand Serpent : This one seems better balanced, altough it seems better for Usa and China.
The map wasn't played so much stays to be discovered in term of strats and bo's there.
- Scorched Earth : Symetrical map, but very weird one to play. It would produce short games most of the times.
What's very annoying there, is the bug with buildings (you can't flash properly and this can decide a game sadly)
- Silent River : It should be an Usa map, but not that easy to play cause there is only 1 supply at base.
Maybe the balance is ok on this one, we would need some good level games on it to see.
- Winter Worlf : CHINA map imo. Very weird supply placement (only 1 supply at base and very unsafe supply in the middle which decide the game)
UvC and even UvG is hard to play on this map.
- Wasteland Warlords : CHINA or GLA map. Totally unbalanced map due to supply placementa and too much unsafe money.

- TD : Basically the most balanced map for the 3 factions altough there are some disadvantages with the spots.
1) 2 "safe supplies at base" : that's very good for USA
2) only 2 oils but unsafe, far from base : that's good for GLA and CHINA
3) the cars : good for GLA
4) Money in the middle : good for CHINA but also good in UvG for late game.
This map certainly produce the most enjoyable games and is designed for non stop action and fast paced game.
This map is far superior to any other 1v1 map due to all the factor listed.

Like Kassad pointed it in the last tournament topic, we would need just 4 or 5 very good map, like TD, balanced for all factions, to use for the next tournies.
Vendetta would maybe be ok, but we need much more testing on it, especially UvC.
Forgotten Forest seems ok.
Letting all the official maps as map pool for such tournies is a non sense imo cause you would be forced to pick a specific army on some maps to only get a chance. That would be similar to ZH then, once the match up appears, if it's an imba match up, you're screwed. We should absolutly avoid that ...

QUOTE(trve^viking @ Apr 6 2021, 16:43 PM) *

1.to me the maps dont need a big fix cause they are good as they are,there are a few spots that could be adjusted, like for example some terrain level at supply spots etc. but overall its ok.

You say that cause you only play for fun and don't care about losing.
But it would be very bad to lose a tourny just cause the map is totally unbalanced and that skills don't matter.
People won't be attracted to play CCG with such a concept, considering they have very good maps on ZH.

QUOTE(trve^viking @ Apr 6 2021, 16:43 PM) *

2. the map pool got different styles which forces you to switch the strat/bo (except gatth mellow.gif ) sometimes it favors an army over another but thats tough to prevent and its more or less balanced over the whole map pool.

that china can do a bit more and is tougher to beat is a problem of the game itself,not so much of the maps.

Like you say it here, it's only almost balanced if you play the whole map pool in a row.
But I still think there are more china maps than usa ones.
I never had fun bashing a china player on a campy long 1v1 on FC tbh ...

QUOTE(trve^viking @ Apr 6 2021, 16:43 PM) *

3. imo if you make adjustments to the map you should keep the core idea of it in mind,for example the idea of desert fury is that you need to fight for the oil in middle and therefore move out of your base,if the opponent manages to get all 4 oils you got a problem. (or you decide to ignore it and rush his base. tongue.gif )
at your version that idea is gone, with the 2 oils in the base there is no need to fight for the oil in middle.

I would be curious to see how you manage to fight for the oils in middle in UvC on Desert Fury.
Theory and practice is something very different sometimes.

QUOTE(trve^viking @ Apr 6 2021, 16:43 PM) *

at alpine assault the idea is,that you need to fight for the hills,in the original version you can win the game if you have the hills even if your opponent kills the base, in the new version it shifts more to 2 supplies + oil in base.
also cars play a big role there gla can stop a lot of attacks from china with cars, i think down spot had 4 if you do it right you could kill the wf with it. the other way around china and usa have to counter the cars, that part is gone without any reason?

Alpine is just a garbage map.
The developper should have been drunk when he designed it. There is no way to counter the cars there if the Gla player knows what he's doing.


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# 15ScOtSmAn Apr 10 2021, 21:57 PM
Tournament Tundra + FC have been good fun to play on

Good job Krew

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# 16Murder- Apr 11 2021, 18:54 PM
QUOTE(squaak @ Apr 10 2021, 19:53 PM) *

Nice initiative Krew ! Well done.
It would be best to test all these new maps in a specific tournament.
For example a round robin tournament between a few participants spread over a few weeks with BOAM in a row.
Of course it would be just for fun cause we don't know yet if this would be fully balanced.
No, I don't think so.
Most of the official 1v1 maps sucks and are very poorly balanced, with even great disadvantages between the top and bottom spot, so even mirror games would be unbalanced on some maps !
Imo your opinion is biased here cause you think about these maps as a GLA player.

In my opinion, the disadvantages of the current official maps are the following, considering equal skilled players :
- Alpine Assault : GLA map obviously with all the cars and only 1 supply in base. Other armies stand absolutly no chance at all. Also very bad for UvC, it's nearly impossible to get any money as USA so you have to go for all in strats and very short games.
- Desert Fury : CHINA map. Very open and it's all about the 4 oils. Only an army with a very strong eco at start and a cheap brut force would prevail. No way to really stop China getting more money on this map imo.
And 99 % of the times, money makes the win.
- Final Crusade : USA map. Much easy money in base, oils, small entrances.
One of the rare one ! That's why nobody really liked it lol.
But bottom spot >> top spot.
- Heartland Shield : GLA map imo, just cause of the cars.
Also UvC is not really pleasant to play there.
Sand Serpent : This one seems better balanced, altough it seems better for Usa and China.
The map wasn't played so much stays to be discovered in term of strats and bo's there.
- Scorched Earth : Symetrical map, but very weird one to play. It would produce short games most of the times.
What's very annoying there, is the bug with buildings (you can't flash properly and this can decide a game sadly)
- Silent River : It should be an Usa map, but not that easy to play cause there is only 1 supply at base.
Maybe the balance is ok on this one, we would need some good level games on it to see.
- Winter Worlf : CHINA map imo. Very weird supply placement (only 1 supply at base and very unsafe supply in the middle which decide the game)
UvC and even UvG is hard to play on this map.
- Wasteland Warlords : CHINA or GLA map. Totally unbalanced map due to supply placementa and too much unsafe money.

- TD : Basically the most balanced map for the 3 factions altough there are some disadvantages with the spots.
1) 2 "safe supplies at base" : that's very good for USA
2) only 2 oils but unsafe, far from base : that's good for GLA and CHINA
3) the cars : good for GLA
4) Money in the middle : good for CHINA but also good in UvG for late game.
This map certainly produce the most enjoyable games and is designed for non stop action and fast paced game.
This map is far superior to any other 1v1 map due to all the factor listed.

Like Kassad pointed it in the last tournament topic, we would need just 4 or 5 very good map, like TD, balanced for all factions, to use for the next tournies.
Vendetta would maybe be ok, but we need much more testing on it, especially UvC.
Forgotten Forest seems ok.
Letting all the official maps as map pool for such tournies is a non sense imo cause you would be forced to pick a specific army on some maps to only get a chance. That would be similar to ZH then, once the match up appears, if it's an imba match up, you're screwed. We should absolutly avoid that ...
You say that cause you only play for fun and don't care about losing.
But it would be very bad to lose a tourny just cause the map is totally unbalanced and that skills don't matter.
People won't be attracted to play CCG with such a concept, considering they have very good maps on ZH.
Like you say it here, it's only almost balanced if you play the whole map pool in a row.
But I still think there are more china maps than usa ones.
I never had fun bashing a china player on a campy long 1v1 on FC tbh ...
I would be curious to see how you manage to fight for the oils in middle in UvC on Desert Fury.
Theory and practice is something very different sometimes.
Alpine is just a garbage map.
The developper should have been drunk when he designed it. There is no way to counter the cars there if the Gla player knows what he's doing.

I personally don't think every map should be 100% balanced for all armies. I think it's fine that certain maps are USA/GLA/China favored maps as long as you play RvR on them. If you don't then you are right ofcourse. My opinion is based on playing Random vs Random on all these maps. Not picking GLA, I barely ever pick GLA off-TD. Ask Viking. And if i look a that: I can beat Viking pretty easy on imba matchups on some of these maps (USA vs China on Scorched Earth for example). And i'm not even a good as a USA as you are. So I think the imba is not as bad as you state.

I think the symmetry of some maps is worse then the actual design of the map. For example: GLA mirror on Sand Serpent has a high chance of swinging towards top spot. There should be a lot of unsafe supplies on these maps. That's what makes them interesting and unique. There's plenty of strats to come up to win UvC f.e. on Wasteland. (Watch the USA vs China I played against Justin in 2011 or something) These maps provide different gameplay. After watching Zero Hour Tournament games for awhile now it becomes pretty boring. All these maps come down to the same thing: both players have atleast two safe supplies. They battle for the other resources on the map, and that's it. The BOs are pretty tedious, barely ever creative and pretty much the same most of the time. The way some of the CCG maps is set up creates more creative BOs, more aggresive BOs or more unique well-thought BOs specifically made for that map. And that's what makes CCG more fresh for longer and being able to come up with new strategies.

This post has been edited by Murder-: Apr 11 2021, 18:57 PM

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# 17ScOtSmAn Apr 11 2021, 22:33 PM
If you play random you get one of the armies Murder and your opponent gets an army also so then if the map suits one of those armies and it favours that army heavily then itís not really that great a set up is it? Really if a map is terrible for say USA and you beat someone just because of the map the map should be fixed or not played

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# 18Murder- Apr 11 2021, 23:29 PM
QUOTE(ScOtSmAn @ Apr 12 2021, 00:33 AM) *

If you play random you get one of the armies Murder and your opponent gets an army also so then if the map suits one of those armies and it favours that army heavily then itís not really that great a set up is it? Really if a map is terrible for say USA and you beat someone just because of the map the map should be fixed or not played

I know, you are right. But I think there a very few cases where a player wins just because of the map. Alpine GLA is one. I think CvU Vendetta is one aswell. Maybe some others. But I don't think it's as bad as pointed out here. Reworking most of the official 1v1 maps will lead to them losing their unique touch. And it's some of these unique maps that should be appreciated for providing different type of gameplay they offer. Like Scorched Earth!

Reworking these maps just makes every map far too similar, because they have to be balanced at all cost. We never had a problem with these maps in previous World Series. And it was fine with most of them.

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