Good guide, however I would say leave ring of sorcery to someone in your team with a lower mana pool e.g. pebbles or behemoth, and get a couple of talismans of exile instead.
As for late game items, totem of kuldra is far far better then sac stone or SoTM and wards should be got throughout the game.
This post has been edited by iBagel: Aug 26 2009, 12:25 PM
Good guide, however I would say leave ring of sorcery to someone in your team with a lower mana pool e.g. pebbles or behemoth, and get a couple of talismans of exile instead.
As for late game items, totem of kuldra is far far better then sac stone or SoTM and wards should be got throughout the game.
I agree that it's a good guide.
That's probably where I stop agreeing with this post however
Thunderbringer never has any requirement to get late-game items at all. If you're playing thunderbringer at a high level (ie with a co-ordinated team) then the vast majority of the times you should be trying to feed the kills to your carry and keeping the carry safe whilst he farms rather than farming yourself. This means that you're going to be getting much less gold once the laning phase ends and so will delay any serious late-game item, in this situation the arcane ring and increased number of wards you can buy are vastly superior in a supporting role to the 3 seconds disable you would get from Totem when you do finally build the item. Especially in a situation when you simply do not have an obvious RoS carrier like jereziah, pebbles or Behemoth. Everyone loves mana - Fact. Being able to replenish mana to your whole team after a gank or team fight allows you to or push without a return trip to the fountain which costs you the time you just won by killing an enemy hero/heroes or lets you hold that tower until your team-mates revive and can port in.
Totem is only better situationally - just like the other two. It is only a superior item when there is an obvious target you want to use it on, such as an arachna or magmus - someone who dishes out a lot of damage very quickly but can also go down very quickly when disabled.
If you're playing a solo thunderbringer (which you likely will be to maximise his potential) and you have achieved a lot of kills and creep stats very quickly, such as you might in a pub, then you're significantly better off getting yourself a sacrificial stone as it dramatically increases your survivability - if the game is still early enough that your nukes are doing drastic damage (before about 35 minutes) and you build up a few charges on your sacrificial stone then you become incredibly hard to take down but still deal a lot of punishment, you also won't have ANY mana problems thanks to the charges. The result of this is creating a formidable carry-thunderbringer (a rare sight admittedly) who does too much damage to ignore but is still durable enough to be a poor choice of target.
The same can be said for Staff of the Master - whilst it doesn't make you into a absolute whirlwind of devastation it also doesn't require incredible farm and a ton of kills to be efficient. With a staff of the master within 30 minutes your ultimate becomes a MASSIVE nuke that can easily change any fight anywhere on the map - an ability Totem is incredibly lacklustre at providing. It also dramatically increases the duration of the game for which Thunderbringer's ult is game-changing.
It's also incredibly important to note that totem is the only one of the three that doesn't dramatically improve thunderbringer's survivability - something he is definately lacking.
On topic : Good beginner's guide to thunderbringer. I'd recommend this to anyone who is just starting out with thunderbringer and is looking to get a feel for the hero. The only thing I'd disagree with is the idea of bottle first, especially if you aren't solo mid. If you have a courier you can always bring the bottle up after a few minutes laning, and until then you can use runes/mana potions to keep yourself going whilst at the same time having some stat items.
This post has been edited by 13laded: Aug 26 2009, 12:54 PM
Bottle in side lanes as you said is quite inferior to the solo mid bottle, which is why i recommend less spamming. Of course you could get stat items to start and some minor regen items but my reasoning for getting a bottle is that Thunderbringer very rarely last hits using his attack so the bonus stats wont mean much.
Not that i have any problem with branches tangos and mana pots in side lanes some people prefer it, i just find it is simpilar to run the bottle because in most pub games your team doesnt share a chicken making it more difficult to run a bottle to yourself after 4 minutes or so.
And as competitive level games Thunderbringer is always solo mid and usually can control the runes unless he is playing against a madman, most of the time there isnt much problem because his constant last hits with chain lightning causes the lane to be pushed up requiring the opposing mid hero to stay beside the tower, giving you a small head start to the runes. Not to mention a regen rune in the first 4 minutes almost assures you a 6 minute energy booster and a win in middle lane.(not sure what it is called in HoN, the item which gives +250 mana and is used in socerery ring).
In games where you do have a chicken and are laning on either side branches tangos and mana pots of course would work just as well if not better.
And of course as with any guide there are small variations that certain players prefer.
Thanks for the variation, I encourage people to play both starting builds.
Going to add the alternate build for side laning in the post later tonight.
This post has been edited by KGB_Killer: Aug 26 2009, 14:19 PM
That's probably where I stop agreeing with this post however
Thunderbringer never has any requirement to get late-game items at all. If you're playing thunderbringer at a high level (ie with a co-ordinated team) then the vast majority of the times you should be trying to feed the kills to your carry and keeping the carry safe whilst he farms rather than farming yourself. This means that you're going to be getting much less gold once the laning phase ends and so will delay any serious late-game item, in this situation the arcane ring and increased number of wards you can buy are vastly superior in a supporting role to the 3 seconds disable you would get from Totem when you do finally build the item. Especially in a situation when you simply do not have an obvious RoS carrier like jereziah, pebbles or Behemoth. Everyone loves mana - Fact. Being able to replenish mana to your whole team after a gank or team fight allows you to or push without a return trip to the fountain which costs you the time you just won by killing an enemy hero/heroes or lets you hold that tower until your team-mates revive and can port in.
Everyone loves mana yes, especially stunners like hammerstorm or magmus or behemoth or pebbles who have an extremely low mana pool and are out of mana after 1 stun. The RoS provides them with that extra mana pool for a second stun, and also the abilty to provide mana for the team.
Totem is only better situationally - just like the other two. It is only a superior item when there is an obvious target you want to use it on, such as an arachna or magmus - someone who dishes out a lot of damage very quickly but can also go down very quickly when disabled.
Totem is not situational at all. It is extremely useful in almost every situation. Not only for killing heroes, but its also a great escaping tool. Thunderbringer's only weakness is the lack of a disable, totem is the answer.
If you're playing a solo thunderbringer (which you likely will be to maximise his potential) and you have achieved a lot of kills and creep stats very quickly, such as you might in a pub, then you're significantly better off getting yourself a sacrificial stone as it dramatically increases your survivability - if the game is still early enough that your nukes are doing drastic damage (before about 35 minutes) and you build up a few charges on your sacrificial stone then you become incredibly hard to take down but still deal a lot of punishment, you also won't have ANY mana problems thanks to the charges. The result of this is creating a formidable carry-thunderbringer (a rare sight admittedly) who does too much damage to ignore but is still durable enough to be a poor choice of target.
The same can be said for Staff of the Master - whilst it doesn't make you into a absolute whirlwind of devastation it also doesn't require incredible farm and a ton of kills to be efficient. With a staff of the master within 30 minutes your ultimate becomes a MASSIVE nuke that can easily change any fight anywhere on the map - an ability Totem is incredibly lacklustre at providing. It also dramatically increases the duration of the game for which Thunderbringer's ult is game-changing.
Wrong. SoTM only increases the damage done by his ult by about 120. Sure 120 on each hero adds up to a decent total extra damage. But totem removes someone from a team fight for 3 seconds which is more then enough time to kill that hero if focused.
It's also incredibly important to note that totem is the only one of the three that doesn't dramatically improve thunderbringer's survivability
It adds 10 str which is a decnt amount of hp + added armour from the +10 agi. and a tool for slowing silencing to allow him the time to escape, how does that NOT increase his survivability?
On topic : Good beginner's guide to thunderbringer. I'd recommend this to anyone who is just starting out with thunderbringer and is looking to get a feel for the hero. The only thing I'd disagree with is the idea of bottle first, especially if you aren't solo mid. If you have a courier you can always bring the bottle up after a few minutes laning, and until then you can use runes/mana potions to keep yourself going whilst at the same time having some stat items.
my answers are in bold
This post has been edited by iBagel: Aug 26 2009, 15:30 PM
I agree with Blade and KGB on everything except I think that totem is always a good item to have on a team rather than situational - although the farm required for it is prohibitive to a hero who will probably be your main ward bitch.
I personally never start with bottle, as someone said, I end up getting one after several minutes. I prefer stat items to bottle early to help last hitting w/o the help of chain lightning. Bottle is certainly my next item, with perhaps a set of wards.
Ring of Sorcery should probably ALWAYS be gotten on your team, and Zeus is someone that could carry it, but so could others like pebbles or behemoth, who don't have decent int gain. In that case you skip the Ring of Sorcery and get two nulls. Then grab the 1200 glow stone and 1100 beast hard next to boost survivability, if you're going sac heart of sotm. If you'te going for kuldra you'd grab the 2100 orb, basically you always grab what helps you survive out of a recipe first.
Good guide though, can certainly be used in pubs and IH's or offly balanced scrims. I think in a balanced scrim setting, expecting any big items on zeus is a bit much. At level 16 he should primarily be running ganks and helping pushes, not farming. If he can farm these items of of kills alone then by all means, but there are usually others on the team that would benefit from farming a lane, such as carries or semi-carries who REQUIRE large items and many of them.
This post has been edited by StRiDaH: Aug 26 2009, 23:01 PM
Everyone loves mana yes, especially stunners like hammerstorm or magmus or behemoth or pebbles who have an extremely low mana pool and are out of mana after 1 stun. The RoS provides them with that extra mana pool for a second stun, and also the abilty to provide mana for the team.
That barely scratches the surface of how useful it is. It has a 33 second cooldown which is fairly short in the downtime between fights, that could equal two heals from nymphora whilst defending a push which can fully heal everyone you have alive. This allows you to also drop nukes to hold your tower and keep it up until people you lost have revived and can get back in the fight. It also allows your team to continue pushing by nuking the creep wave after a major battle, taking advantage of the vulnerabilities left by killing enemy heroes. Also your reply seems to indicate you agree that RoS is a good idea, where in your initial post you said to leave it to someone else.
QUOTE
Totem is not situational at all. It is extremely useful in almost every situation. Not only for killing heroes, but its also a great escaping tool. Thunderbringer's only weakness is the lack of a disable, totem is the answer.
Totem is clearly vastly more situational than an upgraded ultimate simply because it requires you to be in range to use it - as I said a SotM is much better if you can farm it quickly (such as 25 minutes) because there will still be a lot of smaller engagments where your ult can make all the difference - also at that stage of the game the upgraded ultimate is huge in a teamfight.
QUOTE
Wrong. SoTM only increases the damage done by his ult by about 120. Sure 120 on each hero adds up to a decent total extra damage. But totem removes someone from a team fight for 3 seconds which is more then enough time to kill that hero if focused.
Wrong. Disabling one hero for three seconds in a team fight is not as powerful as the added damage to their whole team. It's not like in a team fight you can pop totem and then have your entire team kill that guy whilst their team watches you. The more likely scenario is that the team that initiates will be pushing up, if it's you then your totem could disable a vital enemy but if it's them it's more likely the guy disabled will just drop everything three seconds later. Suggesting a three second disable is ALWAYS going to be better than upping the damage you can do is ridiculous. If your team is lacking disable then sure totem is probably better, but if it's lacking damage SotM is clearly a superior choice.
QUOTE
It adds 10 str which is a decnt amount of hp + added armour from the +10 agi. and a tool for slowing silencing to allow him the time to escape, how does that NOT increase his survivability?
10 strength is (iirc) 190 hp, 10 agility is around 1.3 armour which translates to somelike like 1-2% physical damage reduction? I said totem was the only one that didn't significantly increase his durability, which compared to 500hp or 450hp and potentially fountain regen I would think is fair to say isn't significant.
That barely scratches the surface of how useful it is. It has a 33 second cooldown which is fairly short in the downtime between fights, that could equal two heals from nymphora whilst defending a push which can fully heal everyone you have alive. This allows you to also drop nukes to hold your tower and keep it up until people you lost have revived and can get back in the fight. It also allows your team to continue pushing by nuking the creep wave after a major battle, taking advantage of the vulnerabilities left by killing enemy heroes. Also your reply seems to indicate you agree that RoS is a good idea, where in your initial post you said to leave it to someone else.
Ive never doubted the usefulness of RoS, I said it would be BETTER to let a different hero in the team get it, perhaps you didnt catch that in my first post.
QUOTE(13laded @ Aug 27 2009, 00:35 AM)
Totem is clearly vastly more situational than an upgraded ultimate simply because it requires you to be in range to use it - as I said a SotM is much better if you can farm it quickly (such as 25 minutes) because there will still be a lot of smaller engagments where your ult can make all the difference - also at that stage of the game the upgraded ultimate is huge in a teamfight.
Disables are never situational. As I said before, they are useful in team fights and for chasing and for running. His ult, however, is good for 2 of those.
QUOTE(13laded @ Aug 27 2009, 00:35 AM)
Wrong. Disabling one hero for three seconds in a team fight is not as powerful as the added damage to their whole team. It's not like in a team fight you can pop totem and then have your entire team kill that guy whilst their team watches you. The more likely scenario is that the team that initiates will be pushing up, if it's you then your totem could disable a vital enemy but if it's them it's more likely the guy disabled will just drop everything three seconds later. Suggesting a three second disable is ALWAYS going to be better than upping the damage you can do is ridiculous. If your team is lacking disable then sure totem is probably better, but if it's lacking damage SotM is clearly a superior choice.
Disabling a key hero can seriously mess up the other teams coordination and hopes of chain stunning/disabling. His ult may deal damage, but if you and your team is disabled you cant do very much.
QUOTE(13laded @ Aug 27 2009, 00:35 AM)
10 strength is (iirc) 190 hp, 10 agility is around 1.3 armour which translates to somelike like 1-2% physical damage reduction? I said totem was the only one that didn't significantly increase his durability, which compared to 500hp or 450hp and potentially fountain regen I would think is fair to say isn't significant.
As I said before, the disable is great for getting away and can give enough time to TP or simply act as a deterent.
QUOTE(StRiDaH @ Aug 27 2009, 00:41 AM)
I can settle this.
If your team is lacking in damage output - get SotM If your team is lacking in disable - get Kuldra
/end
1. A team lacking in damage output is a bad team 2. A team lacking in disables is a bad team 3. You can never have enough disables
This post has been edited by iBagel: Aug 26 2009, 23:54 PM
in your initial post you said to leave it to someone else.
QUOTE(iBagel @ Aug 27 2009, 00:54 AM)
Ive never doubted the usefulness of RoS, I said it would be BETTER to let a different hero in the team get it, perhaps you didnt catch that in my first post.
QUOTE
Disables are never situational. As I said before, they are useful in team fights and for chasing and for running. His ult, however, is good for 2 of those.
Sure, if you're there. If you aren't then it isn't much use at all - whereas your ultimate is a global. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that that was my point.
QUOTE
Disabling a key hero can seriously mess up the other teams coordination and hopes of chain stunning/disabling. His ult may deal damage, but if you and your team is disabled you cant do very much.
One three second disable is clearly not enough to completely destroy a team's co-ordination. The extra damage is hugely significant in the early game.
QUOTE
As I said before, the disable is great for getting away and can give enough time to TP or simply act as a deterent.
You built totem and there's one guy trying to stop you getting away? If you're thirty + minutes in the chances of totem saving your ass are fairly slim.
QUOTE
1. A team lacking in damage output is a bad team 2. A team lacking in disables is a bad team 3. You can never have enough disables
If it's a choice between disable and damage, disable is clearly not always the answer. If it was you'd see teams of all support/stunners without any carry. I'd also argue that you can never have too much damage either.
This post has been edited by 13laded: Aug 27 2009, 00:48 AM
Sure, if you're there. If you aren't then it isn't much use at all - whereas your ultimate is a global. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that that was my point.
What use is there being on the team if your not going to be in team fights and ganks and instead snipe with your ulti?
QUOTE(13laded @ Aug 27 2009, 01:48 AM)
One three second disable is clearly not enough to completely destroy a team's co-ordination. The extra damage is hugely significant in the early game.
If that is your only disable then yeh, it wont to very much, but chaining with other disables and stuns IS devestating.
QUOTE(13laded @ Aug 27 2009, 01:48 AM)
You built totem and there's one guy trying to stop you getting away? If you're thirty + minutes in the chances of totem saving your ass are fairly slim.
The chances of SoTM saving you are none. And disabling for example a stunner in a group chasing you can give you enough time to TP.
QUOTE(13laded @ Aug 27 2009, 01:48 AM)
If it's a choice between disable and damage, disable is clearly not always the answer. If it was you'd see teams of all support/stunners without any carry. I'd also argue that you can never have too much damage either.
Its pretty hard to not deal a significant amount of damage with a stunner/disable team because, chances are, you have nukes to go along side it (let along the damage from the stuns) and having a carry should go without saying..
Im going to wrap this up by saying this. Get whichever item you feel will be more useful for your team. I think that a totem would be more useful in most situations. bladed thinks SoTM is. Ultimately its up to you to use your intuition.
What use is there being on the team if your not going to be in team fights and ganks and instead snipe with your ulti?
You can't be in EVERY gank, and it's not sniping if you aren't using it to KS Also your ult doesn't require you to leave your lane giving warning of your approach if the other team calls missing.
QUOTE
If that is your only disable then yeh, it wont to very much, but chaining with other disables and stuns IS devestating.
Sure, but it's not like the extra 3.5 second disable is suddenly going to turn everything in your favour.
QUOTE
The chances of SoTM saving you are none. And disabling for example a stunner in a group chasing you can give you enough time to TP.
LOL. This one is my favourite - if you have a 7 charge SoTM, you don't need saving, you're damn near unkillable. How does permanant fountain-regen NOT save you? o.O
QUOTE
Its pretty hard to not deal a significant amount of damage with a stunner/disable team because, chances are, you have nukes to go along side it (let along the damage from the stuns) and having a carry should go without saying..
Im going to wrap this up by saying this. Get whichever item you feel will be more useful for your team. I think that a totem would be more useful in most situations. bladed thinks SoTM is. Ultimately its up to you to use your intuition.
So in a perfect team go for totem? Yes I agree with that completely. Now if everyone always plays with a team of five and always gets a solid line-up then that's brilliant. Also find me one place where I said SoTM is more useful in most situations that totem? That's complete bullshit and also utterly retarded. Of course you should go totem most of the time, I was simply disagreeing with your assessment that Totem was ALWAYS better when that's clearly not true.
This post has been edited by 13laded: Aug 28 2009, 14:46 PM
Sure, but it's not like the extra 3.5 second disable is suddenly going to turn everything in your favour. LOL. This one is my favourite - if you have a 7 charge SoTM, you don't need saving, you're damn near unkillable. How does permanant fountain-regen NOT save you? o.O
I think you have made quite a mistake. SoTM (Staff of the master) is the thing which improves his ultimate. your confusing it with sacrificial stone which is the bloodstone equivalent in DotA.
This post has been edited by iBagel: Aug 28 2009, 15:32 PM
I think you have made quite a mistake. SoTM (Staff of the master) is the thing which improves his ultimate. your confusing it with sacrificial stone which is the bloodstone equivalent in DotA.
Yep.
As for SoTM, it gives more hp than totem but sure, it's probably not going to save you 'quite' as much, but in a team fight it'll be better for durability.
Also in a team fight the extra damage will be more effective unless they have such uber-hero who needs to be disabled badly.
This post has been edited by 13laded: Aug 28 2009, 17:37 PM
You'll probably never farm either item unless you are nailing every kill on the map + laning a lot. 2-3 Nulls, Bottle, Wards, Portal Key, gg. If someone else on your team is warding, then sure go for a bigger item. I, however, think that getting either item is EXTREMELY rare against GOOD opponents, and I believe I play a fairly decent Thunderbringer.
In fact, I don't recall EVER building SoTM on Thunderbringer. I've built Totem....oh, maybe twice. I prefer core nulls, bottle, phase boots/travels depending, and a portal key. I'm a sucker for Portal Key on int nukers, it's so delicious if used well, especially throughout the mid game.
Zeus blink ala Merlini style ftw.
btw I agree with Bladed on w/e the disagreement is, I'm better than him at most heroes but he's probably right at w/e he is saying LOL.
This post has been edited by Elegy: Aug 29 2009, 03:59 AM
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