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Your Top 5 Balance Concerns

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# 1Inverse Oct 6 2010, 02:24 AM
Part 1 of the Balance Analysis has completed. Thanks to everyone who contributed ideas and concerns. Part 2 will begin shortly (once I exit exam hell).

Before I begin, I must thank Sepha and Siou for giving me the idea for this project and for providing a basic framework in which I am able to set it up. With that in mind, let's get to the fun stuff...

What is this?

This is an attempt to entertain some intelligent, constructive balance discussion between competitive 1v1 and 2v2 players outside of the mess that is the official beta balance forum. As Part 1 of what will be an ongoing balance analysis, the goal of this particular thread is to gauge the focus of the community's balance concerns so that they may be elaborated upon in subsequent parts.

How does it work?

Each member is permitted one post in this thread, which you may edit as many times as you like until the conclusion of this part of the project. In your post, you will be permitted to post your top 5 1v1 and/or 2v2 balance concerns. Try to be as specific as you can; order does not matter, and no more than 5 of your concerns will be considered, so do not post more than that amount. Furthermore, this is not a time or place for theorycrafting on possible strategies or uses of units. Let's stick to concrete gameplay details here.

What's the timeline?

This thread will be unlocked after the scheduled server maintenance tomorrow (in order to allow for the possibility of a patch), and will run until Wednesday, October 13 in order to give you enough time to play around with the new patch, if it arrives. At that time, results will be aggregated and Part 2 will commence shortly afterward.

Thanks for your participation!

This post has been edited by Inverse: Oct 14 2010, 16:02 PM

Posts: 5,577

Clan: Reign of Madness

Game: Company of Heroes

# 2Inverse Oct 6 2010, 19:05 PM
Subject to change of course tongue.gif

1. Attrition - Obvious reasons here. Betrays the concept of infantry unit preservation that made vCoH so great and so different from other RTS games. Is far too cost-effective and difficult to counter because one must decide between giving his opponents free squads and retreating, losing ground.

2. Infantry Camo - This ability comes way too early, is way too cost-effective, and has far too low a cooldown for what it is able to do. MGs and snipers are useless against full-speed BAR riflemen and flamers laying mines, decapping points, and walking around your weapons teams easily earlygame. Mid and lategame, camoed riflemen walking up to Pumas with sticky bombs only adds insult to injury.

3. Field Repairs - The repair rate is too great. That's pretty much the only problem with this ability, but it is such a huge problem that it doesn't matter. Either reduce the rate (preferably), or reduce the duration.

4. Piospam with Army Items - Piospam is already an extremely broken strategy, evidenced by recent vCoH tournaments as well as Magpies' insistence on dropping Piospam in the recent Sandland Invitational final for the sake of fair play. Army items merely exacerbate this issue, with rifles, fausts, defensive bonuses, and increased sight.

5. Recoup Losses - Much like Attrition, this is an ability that rewards sloppy play and actually becomes more effective the quicker you lose your squads. Abilities that give resources are inherently problematic because they disrupt the fine balance of tech vs. unit buildup in a way that limits the viability of many strats.

This post has been edited by Inverse: Oct 6 2010, 20:10 PM

Posts: 5,577

Clan: Reign of Madness

Game: Company of Heroes

# 3Audemed Oct 6 2010, 19:06 PM
1. Infantry Attrition
Not only does it shamelessly promote bad play, it's an easily abuseable way to get up to more than 2k MP worth of infantry for free with rangers. Just read the rest of the thread, it's been said enough.

2. Infantry camo
There's no reason that for NO COST AT ALL you should be able to make full speed invisible US infantry/jeeps/at guns. Regardless of the effect of negating MG's in the early game, invisible stickies, capping, mine laying, building, etc is far, far out of place.

3. Field Repair
Nothing inherently wrong with the ability, but it repairs FAR too much to be penalty-free. Any damage taken (not just a hit) should stop the repair.

4. Flares There's nothing wrong with the concept of flares, but they're the big catalyst with the offmap baserape issue at the moment, as well as completely negating allied snipers with the instant reveal. A 5(ish) second delay after the use of the ability before revealing/debuffing, as well as some sort of deterrent/prevention to drop offmap in the same place is needed.

5. Penalty-less Heroes
All heroes need a downside. Grenadier bike can't spot, field specialist sniper can't cloak. ALL HEROES need to be like this. Gladiator rifles, for example, designed for absolute combat superiority; Remove their ability to cap. As others have stated, the assault jeep is also ridiculously OP.

This post has been edited by Audemed: Oct 7 2010, 00:50 AM

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Game: Company of Heroes

# 4simonp Oct 6 2010, 19:11 PM
Top 5 balance issues
I'll focus on trying to explain what i think is wrong and not give too many suggestions for ways to fix.

1) Infantry attrition, Recoup losses, Allied war machine. I lump these together in order of importance since i think they are all similar. The problem with these abilities is that they reward, even encourage bad play by giving you squads, resources and tanks back as they die.

Attrition is by far the worst since it can supply an almost everlasting wave of infantry. It actually works to just roll your infantry into the enemy base and shoot his buildings while attrition is active, get the squads back then return for another go. It's a bad idea to have your squads not die when using this ability which runs counter to the core COH skill of proper positioning, use of cover and retreating in time.
Recoup losses & awm are similar in that they reward you for playing poorly, but they don't have as extreme effects.

2) Camouflage. Infantry camouflage & storm camo at full speed is much too strong. Infantry camo negates MG42's completely which really throws the early game balance. I assume being able to perform all kinds of actions while camoed is a bug that will be fixed (capping, mining for instance).

Storms moving at full speed while cloaked gives an incredibly strong assassin unit vs vehicles and AT guns. A double shrekked storm squad will kill an AT gun in one volley since the shreks always hit the gun now, run home and come back immediately at full speed.

3) Allied hero, assault jeep. It can cap, do lots of damage and is very resilient in itself, and cheap too. It just seems like too much of a muchness. It can do everything and has no real weak points since it does not give up the early game capping advantage that a jeep start means.

4) Piospam/engispam. . All the items boosting the basic builder units promote piospam and engispam. The axis edition is probably the worst since they can stack booster items, flamers, panzerfausts and rifles + veterancy on their pioneers. I hear that the top player on the defensive leaderboard is a piospammer, while he is probably an excellent player his stats (currently 101-4) should give an indication that something is wrong here.

Pio and engispam should simply not be viable, it's a terrible caricature of the genius that is COH gameplay.

5) Field repair It seems to be a little too quick in fixing tanks. To me it feels like a world of warcraft warrior constantly being healed while fighting. It lets tanks overrun positions with ease and stand in the face of AT weapons and laugh. It has such great synergy with armors units that i feel it's a little too much. Perhaps if it broke off if the unit took damage while repairing, it shouldnt work like this huge reservoir of extra hitpoints for all tanks.

This post has been edited by simonp: Oct 6 2010, 19:35 PM

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Game: Company of Heroes

# 5Troglodyte Oct 6 2010, 19:17 PM
Attrition. Broken in concept as well as execution. A player dedicated to abusing it can effectively double their manpower income, as well as piss away troops on losing battle after losing battle, wearing down the opponent without significantly impacting their own economy. Mostly, I'm sick of controlling 70% of the map, winning every fight in terms of manpower damage, and losing the fight because I'm outnumbered so savagely.

Strafing Run. I thought we decided, like, two years ago that instagib strafe was a stupid idea that warped matchups. Strafing Run is unavoidable, vastly more effective against units in cover than in vCoH, unaffected even by the now-more-difficult-to-reach Elite Armor, and tears anything less than a tank to shreds. It's not undercosted as the last patch seemed to think, it's savagely overpowered. Even with only one point in delay reduction, it's nearly impossible to escape, and it's wiping vet3 squads out of heavy cover with ludicrous consistency. At a minimum, some degree of friendly fire needs to make it back onto this ability.

Full-Speed Camo. Is this abiding by the rules? Technically it's two abilities, but it's one concept. I don't like Infantry Co camo and I don't like full-speed Storms. Full speed camo is stupid, immersion-breaking, and creates many more situations where opponents have no opportunity to respond to whatever you're doing, because you can put elite troops anywhere you want without detection very quickly. Playing against full-speed camo is un-fun and unfair.

Assault Jeep Rank 5. 0CP Raid is busted six ways to Sunday since it puts the Wehr player in a massive Fuel hole. I don't really see the need to say much more than that about it.

Blitz Flares. I was really torn here. I think Rocket Barrage is too good, but it's also terribly expensive and it's Flares that enable the strategy, not the Barrage. It synergizes well with their other abilities, and even better with Firestorm so that the Blitz player can share the munitions load. It's brutal with mortars, and it lets you put Storms right where they need to be without hitting any inconvenient snipers or MGs.

All told, a bit American-heavy, but other than Blitz abuse I haven't found anything in Wehr matchups that really make me pull my hair out. Honorable mentions (not on my list, just going to make it onto the list once something else falls off): T1 grenades (in general), Fire Up w/out exhaustion, Field Repairs (should break when the unit takes damage), Heroic Charge.

This post has been edited by Troglodyte: Oct 6 2010, 19:45 PM

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Game: Company of Heroes

# 6hillhome Oct 6 2010, 19:52 PM
Broken Abilities:
1. Attrition - This ability takes a dump on everything that should equate to good play and to unit preservation that should be a staple of the US play style. The game becomes simply mindless hordes using blob -> Attack move with no strategy at all. The duration of the ability needs to be FAR less than it is. Rangers need to not be effected or perhaps only one squad of rangers instead of the 4 (or is it 5?) that you can get now.

2. Infantry Camo - While I don't have any issues with the conceptual idea of the ability I find a lot of issue with how it is implemented in two key areas. First of all it needs a duration. Say 30 seconds. This would allow for only ONE squad to be cloaked at a time which is perfect for flanking but not too strong. Secondly that you can cut wire, lay mines, cap points, etc while IN CAMO is 100% broken and needs to be fixed asap. I don't mind rifle sticky from camo personally as I can shreck ambush you and again if there was some kind of "camo timer" once used that it would wear off I'd be much better with this ability.

3. Field Repairs - The repair rate is too great is simply WAY too fast. You can be attacking a sherman with a PIV, Pak and Shrecks and STILL the health bar will go up. Either nerf the rate of repair or drastically shorten the duration.

4. Blitz Rocket Barrage Aftershock - The problem is the use of this ability on bases and not IMO on anywhere else on the map. Dropping it on a base is devastating and far too good. Dropping it elsewhere on the map is nice area denial.

Broken Heroes:
5. Fatherland MG + Survivalist Sniper + Assault Jeep - NO unit that is infantry in this game should move as fast as retreating units and have that be their normal movement speed. The Fatherland MG and the Survivalist Sniper with the speed increases BOTH do that. It is just too much. The Assault Jeep is a no brainer hero unit. It gets extra health, extra accuracy, one of the FEW heroes to get an outright "extra damage" buff, AND it can cap points. As a US player why would you not have one of these especially in 1v1 games? Simply too much synergy with the bonuses. IMO the cap a point should be moved to the Recon Jeep which is fast but lightly armored.

Yes I was tempted to make 5 broken abilities and 5 broken heroes but I refrained.

This post has been edited by hillhome: Oct 6 2010, 19:54 PM

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Clan: Reign of Madness

Game: Company of Heroes 2

# 7RKGhost Oct 6 2010, 20:06 PM
1. Early game Allied Heroes. Assault Jeep, Wilson's Rifles and Elite Engineers simply are too good to be available for 1v1. Sure they cost a chunk of supply, but that does not balance them during the early game where they will be most active. In fact, these heroes remain useful late into the game. The problem with building these 3 is that they essentially can counter anything Axis T1 sends at you. Elite Engineers as your first unit, equipped with 2 BARs and 1 Rifle together with Elite Armor and numerous abilities will tear apart any Pio squads (yes multiples too) they meet. Once Wilsons come out, they easily beat any Volks or Bike. Jeep also easily kites any early game unit along with perma-blocking enemy squads with greater efficiency due to higher hp and damage. There is next to nothing you can do other than hope that your opponent fielding them has no skill as a player.

2. Infantry Camouflage. No Cost. Units can run, cap, build etc while camoed. Can even camo an Assault Jeep for good measure. Available too early and quick cooldown.

3. Armor Field Repairs. Once maxed, no penalties apply to the repaired vehicles and the repair speed is generally faster than anything you can throw at your enemy. Also repairs any engine damage or gun damage and does not weaken the vehicle in any shape or form. For its low cost, you would expect it to be considerably weaker. Take the vCOH Field Repairs as an example, which was more expensive and did not nearly repair as efficiently.

4. Calliope turret. While it is a nice addition overall, the Calliope did not get significantly more expensive compared to its vCOH counterpart with the turret. I would suggest adding an extra cost for the turret in terms of either MP, Ammo+upgrade time, or possibly another CP point for the turreted version.

5. Infantry Off-Map call in. Sends in a huge blob of admittedly low tech units, which are however all upgraded (zooka/flame and BAR if you bought). All for a minor cost. Seems rather spammable especially with the combined use of attrition and heroic charge. I had an army in the enemy base and call-in + attrition + heroic charge completely turned the game more than once.

This post has been edited by RKGhost: Oct 7 2010, 13:32 PM

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Game: Company of Heroes Online

# 8Raxy Oct 6 2010, 20:49 PM
New to Game Replays, but better late then never.

1. Lack of synergy With a majority of Axis Skills.

When it comes down to using skills in tandom this is where the Axis are just downright bad. Speaking from a Defensive and Terror player's point of view. There is no 2 skills that can be used together to help one another out. (maybe propaganda and inspired zeal, but thats iffy.)

while on the American side you have Armor commanders that can call in pershings, load thier HVAP rounds, and self repair thier entire army of armor. all being used together you have a nearly unstopable american armor force.

2.Allied early game heroes (and the fatherland mg)

I'm sorry but Engineers that run around with 2 bars is downright ridiculous. Same thing with Wilsons riflemen, You have units that gain huge advantages, with very little to NO drawbacks. (please dont get me started about the assult jeep) This almost seems to make the fatherland MG justified, But the unit itself can run as fast as a retreating unit and have insane sight and wepon range. Broken but justified.

3. Attrition (already been discused so +1)

4. Field repair (also +1)

5. Strafing runs. (+1 again.)

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Game: Company of Heroes Online

# 9AFKNinja Oct 7 2010, 00:16 AM
1. Attrition & Recoup Losses,
these abilities work in a similar fashion, except one rewards losing whole squads and not individuals. Fixing recoup losses will also go towards fixing piospam, for each pioneer lost, he can get back 10MP, 6M and 3Fuel. Not only does the huge blob of pios mean he can get map control very quickly, but even fighting the blob means he gets more fuel to tech up to pumas very quickly. Not to mention when applied to volks and the volks reinforce discount level3, the MP you get back basically = the MP you spend reinforcing, not to mention the ammo and fuel. Used in conjunction with a FHQ start, this becomes a huge factor in the Wehrmacht player being able to keep a very steady manpower supply without worrying about reinforcement costs, as well as the teching advantage.

2.Infantry camo.
This ability is bugged and able to be abused beyond all reason. And it is Free! Having your points ninja capped by a squad of either tame engies or BAR'd riflemen means you have to send disproportionately large amount of firepower to make sure that they don't happen to be SMG rangers capping, or flamers. Not to mention the full speed running which makes MGs near useless, laying mines, cutting wire, minesweeping (maybe they have to uncloak while defusing).

3. Piospam.
The fact that spamming a support unit is still viable after such a long time, and the fact that it is EXTREMELY viable is a disgrace to Relic and the balancing staff.

4. Field Repair.
It repairs much too fast, and basically gives God Mode to every tank on the map. It's not fun watching your base and units get swarmed by 4 M10s because they repair faster than they take damage, even when focus fired.

5. Game changing Heroes.
Assault Jeep, for obvious reasons, but also heroes that start with shrecks or bazookas in T1 and T0 ie Wilson's Riflemen and Berger's Panzer Pioneers. They can destroy obstacles that are, were, meant to last til mid game, eg base walls (not fences), hedgerows etc and also makes jeep and bike starts significantly more risky (bazookas instagib bikes).

This post has been edited by AFKNinja: Oct 10 2010, 08:23 AM

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# 10Spoletta Oct 7 2010, 05:52 AM
Out of the lurking to make this post:

1) Heroes that have too much of an advantage without drawbacks: Assault jeep, elite engi, wilson etc... we all know them.
2) Strafing run : Already discussed above
3) Infantry camo: Already discussed above
4) No exhaustion Fire-up: This is much of the reason why blobbing is so common and why a support AT unit like ranger can become a primarily AT.
5) Vetting up for call in units: This would help to fix the tiger and force american blobbers to play more in line with CoH mechanics. I would suggest vet 0 to be a bit weaker than the actual version and vet 1 to be slightly better.

Really wanted to place attrition and field repair in there but those had priority.

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Game: Company of Heroes Online

# 11acos_N Oct 7 2010, 06:34 AM
In no particular order-

1) Strafing Run is too good, still. Honestly it shouldn't be an "all in" ability that's balanced around the fact that unlike other artillery it doesn't do much to armor.

2) Infantry Division Bugaloo. Attrition, camo. It's been discussed to death already. At the very least camo needs to be more expensive, more restrictive, and at a higher CP. Fixing the whole bug where you can cap and build while cloaked needs fixing too.

3) Field Repairs. Either it's rate remains, but becomes non-existent in any real combat (or moving for that matter) or it looses it's repair rate, but remains useable while in combat.

4) Pioneer spam. Hero items + new abilities have made it stronger than ever.

5) Map balance.

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# 12Pantalaim0n Oct 7 2010, 13:31 PM
1. Flares - Make countersniping too easy. Consider a match armor company vs blitz. Armor doesn't get anywhere with barracks because there are no early game abilities. WSC is no option either because any weapon crew and snipers will be sniped via flares.

2. Rocket Barrage - The aftershock barrages really call for a strike on the base.

3. Running in camo - I don't mind vet3 snipers doing that, but having storms pulling that off right away is a bit too much. Same goes for inf camo.

4. All kinds of heroes - Fatherland MG, MP40 volks, assault jeep. Rifle heroes not so much because they can't even get BARs. Volks on the other hand have different uses with or without MP40s so they remain more useful.

5. Strafe - Too strong.

QUOTE(RKGhost @ Oct 6 2010, 21:06 PM) *

2. Infantry Camouflage. No Cost. Units can run, cap, build etc while camoed. Can even camo an Assault Jeep for good measure. Available too early and quick cooldown.

I haven't tried it, however the description of the ablity clearly states that it works on non hero jeeps only.

Posts: 9

Game: Company of Heroes

# 13WeeJimmy Oct 7 2010, 15:30 PM
1 - Rocket Barrage vs Base
Far to easy to fire and forget
Can destroy buildings when fully upgraded with aftershocks in 1 call in
If you lose track of time a retreat can result in a lot of units being wiped out
Flares from aftershock grant LOS

2 - Full Speed Camo
No downside to camo now and no reason to have units not in camo state with the movement penalty removed.

3 - Fire Up
Needs a debuff when it ends.

4 - Pio Spam
Vet and now more than ever Items turn a support unit into a front line unit

5 - Early Game Heroes (I would say anything from HQ and 1st and 2nd tier)
Addition of munition cost on the stanard build based on what they come with.
Wilsons 320mp +25mun
Close Combat Volks 280? +15Mun
etc etc

Only exception to the extra resource on early heroes would be the ones considered balanced.
Skilled Rifleman
etc etc

This post has been edited by WeeJimmy: Oct 7 2010, 15:31 PM

Posts: 4

# 14FireflyDivision Oct 7 2010, 16:03 PM
In no particular order:

- Poor gameplay rewarding abilities.
Recoup losses and Infantry attrition. These abilities break the CoH gameplay. While you normally win by destroying enemy units and keep your own alive, these abilities reward you for losing units.

- Pioneerspam with army items.
Piospam was already a known good strat, army items made it overpowered in the hands of the right player. Early Greyhounds aren't a problem because of the panzerfausts. You can kite but a good player will come from multiple directions.

- Rocket barrage with aftershock in base.
Its fine anywhere on the map, but in a base it can win games. Your retreating units will die (ok, thats normal and always has been) but you can't retreat more squads later because of the aftershocks. So you can stay in the battlefield and die, or retreat and also die. You can't do anything in your base.

- Fatherland HMG.
Whenever you want to kill it, it packs up and runs away in no time.

- Infantry company camo.
The munition decrease/remove upgrades should be removed. Such a ability shouldn't be free.

This post has been edited by FireflyDivision: Oct 7 2010, 16:04 PM

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Game: Company of Heroes Online

# 15Kolaris Oct 7 2010, 17:15 PM
1. Piospam + Rifles + Fausts (+Recoup Losses)
Relic has turned Pios into a full-on replacement for Volks with these army items, and Piospam, as a result, is stronger than ever. The Vet 2/3 switch did not help, it's only a slight buff for BARs while a nerf to the supporting Flamethrowers/Mines/Snipers/M8.

2. Pumas
In many ways they're currently a necessary evil offsetting a lot of other issues (Ranger spam, nerfed Ostwind, easy-to-counter MGs), but the simple fact is these things are beasts in vCoH and Relic has only buffed them further (40 more health, even more dodge bonuses, better upgun). They're so durable with vet that they can freely charge AT Guns from the front, or happily sit under the fire of an M8/Sherman while they kill your Rifles faster than you can drive them off.

3. Early Axis AT vs M8s
The combination of the Pak camo nerfs, the Faust nerfs, and the Pak build time nerf has left the Axis' core ability (without Doctrine/Hero units) to counter the fast M8 (especially with army items) in a woeful state. While the Faust nerf is debatable but imo unwarranted, it's the Pak build time increase that really throws off the balance. In vCoH, there's a small window where you can gauge whether your opponent is going fast BARs or M8, and either pump out another T1 unit to fight Rifles or go T2 to push out a Pak. With the Pak taking ~30 seconds longer to build, this window closes. You have to take a blind guess at what your opponent is doing, and that isn't good for gameplay or balance.

4. Call-In Units Not Gaining Veterancy
Yes, I consider this a balance issue as well as a gameplay issue. It's contributing to the spammability of Rangers/AB as well as enabling the wanton abuse of Infantry Attrition. No US unit should have a static effectiveness, this will either make them OP when they arrive, or UP later in the game - or more likely, both. US has a much smaller unit lineup and relies on specialized units to fill certain roles throughout the entire game - nothing should be phased out, and everything should be scaling.

For Axis, it is a bit less of a balance issue but still a big problem for gameplay, since they do rely more on static effectiveness and unit replacement. Still, the first Stormtrooper you call in is going to do some scaling since it's very unlikely you'll have Infantry Vet 3 at 3 CP, or even Tank Vet 3 when you call in a Tiger.

5. Strafing Run
Relic made it more artillery-like with indiscriminate effectiveness against cover/Elite Infantry. Even against light vehicles. Well, Airborne isn't supposed to have traditional artillery. There was a deft balance in that Airborne countered heavy tanks but were countered in turn by light vehicles and infantry-heavy builds. If Strafing Run fully covers those weaknesses, you have a recipe for disaster, I think only overshadowed by the mind numbing simplicity of Rangers + Attrition.

However, more to the point, an ability that you can't dodge, nor take precautions against (cover, vet, vehicle heavy builds) is always going to be broken. While the vCoH Strafe was problematic, and will continue to be so until Relic makes it more useful against blobs than lone units, this was the wrong way to change it. Either a consistent warning, or an overhaul to turn it into a cheaper support ability, but not more like traditional artillery (but even without the audio). For the record, Strafe did need to be a bit more effective against Elite Armour, but making Elite Armour completely useless against it was too far (say, up to vCoH 0.75x accuracy to 1.0x, but not the 0.75x damage).

And yes, I'm intentionally not touching Heroes/Company Abilities since I think you have to address the balance issues with the core game before you can get too involved with peripherals.

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Game: Company of Heroes

# 16NLmatrix Oct 7 2010, 18:46 PM
1: Piospam, especialy combined with army items it becomes unstoppable

2: Army items; Some army items make the T1 units to powerfull, especially the purple icons. The health buff to the volks/pio's mg's etc. gives axis early game advantage before barrs, this makes it impossible to win for US vs a half competent player. Once you gain the right items as wehr, there is no need to waste fuel on veterancy anymore, just fast T4+vet on tanks owns what's left of the US player.

3: Mortars/mg's; mg's (especially wehr's with support vet/army items) do way to much damage to perform a decent flank, simply blobbing with flamers is actually more effective then a skilled flank. The mortar kills a squad in 1 hit sometimes.

4: Recoup losses, makes it possible to outtech a US player, even without mapcontrol.

5: Some heroes need to be nerfed, they are just to powerfull; mp40 volks, assault jeep, recon jeep. Katzenmeyer volks (just the nade damage), destructive mortar. etc.

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Game: Company of Heroes

# 17CdnGamer Oct 8 2010, 04:12 AM
1. Infantry Camoflague, for the obvious reason that they break the whole concept of flanking.

2. Infantry Attrition and Ranger spam combined, because it promotes unit suiciding, as rangers do not get any vet and therefore commanders don't care as long as they get new ones.

3. Hero units that are ridiculous or just far too OP when faced against lower leveled people, such as the fatherland MG, gladiator rifles, and assault jeep.

4. Base arty spam in general has become a major problem, though this is especially true with blitz rocket artillery.

5. 1v1 Matchmaking's tendency to use skill rating on people's commanders from a different faction to gauge a persons skill as the other faction( I am not great as wehr, but the game takes my armor skill rating and uses that to put me against other people, so I end up as a half decent lvl 8 wehr against a lvl 35 american with purple heroes and items!)

This post has been edited by CdnGamer: Oct 8 2010, 04:14 AM

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Game: Company of Heroes

# 18Darc Reaver Oct 8 2010, 08:26 AM
- Poor gameplay rewarding abilities.
Recoup losses and Infantry attrition. These abilities break the CoH gameplay. While you normally win by destroying enemy units and keep your own alive, these abilities reward you for losing units.
Furthermore: Stealth of Infantry Company makes flanking unnecessary - it needs a nerf IMO.

- US lategame AT units (AT-Gun, m10, Pershing) are awful against German tanks, especially the King Tiger. The AT-Guns NEED a penetration buff and somewhat slight increased accuracy against Tanks. In their current state they don't hit anything at long range, which is very frustrating at times. Especially if you use AP rounds for 50 (!!) munitions and both shots miss. AP round use should either last longer or should cost less ammo. M10 and Pershing both suffer from being far inferior to Panther tanks. I've seen M10 rounds bouncing off Panthers REAR armour. Also the survivability is very low. IMO it needs the buffs made in 2.400 vcoh, i.e. higher weapon range (45) and reduced received accuracy while moving, especially against handheld AT units. Maybe a slight buff or bonus to rear penetration.

- Ghost pumas. They're so awful in terms of being killable. Make them get hit by "non-hit" shells instead of letting them phase through. And put back the "received damage x.8" instead of "received accuracy" at vet 1. Should fix a lot of problems.

- Overhaul of the Command point system. Getting 2 End-tree abilities at the same time (like V1 + KT or Pershing + Calliope within 2 CP) is extremely gay. You should have to choose the Abilities ingame just like in vCoH. I.E. you have 10 CP, you can spend them on KT and Terror officer.

- All 0 CP abilities should be moved up to 1 CP.

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# 19MajorBloodnok Oct 10 2010, 09:42 AM
1) Attrition - Recoup losses -rewards poor play

2) Overextensive Infantry Camo.

3) Piospam - limit the amount of Pios on the field to 4 at any one time?

This post has been edited by MajorBloodnok: Oct 12 2010, 22:12 PM

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Game: Company of Heroes 2

# 20GlbSoN Oct 10 2010, 09:53 AM
1) Things like Attrition or Allied War Machine. CoH is about causing the most casualties with the least casualties on one's side. No 1-Click Ability should replace that. Best would be a serious nerf.

2) Camouflage. At the very least there should be movement penalties + no planting mines etc. in camo. However I dislike the general idea, it makes good ol' flankin almost abundant and doesn't reward well set up defenses.

3) Base Arty Spam for obvious reasons.

4) As said before, the matchmaking system, so when you're level 30 with Wehr you end up playing a lvl 30 wehr player with your level 8 Americans.

5) Heroes like the Fatherland Mg and especially the Assault Jeep. Ridiculously overpowered in the hands of a good player.

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Game: Company of Heroes


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