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Supreme Commander

[-]Oblivion vs Cerberus, guess who wins ?

#1AncientSion  May 15 2007, 20:33 PM -
Replays: 16 Game:
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I would appreciate if someone skilled would take a look at this.
I have no clue what to do if the enemy is able to exploit oblivions using their firing while my cerberus shot the ground. And im not talking about a single cerberus being wasted here.
In addition, what do against lots of Harbingers ? In big masses they vastly outperform Loyalists lol.

The game is 1:15 long, but i believe its an interesting watch and it is not as laggy as u might think. I just watched it it took me 30 minutes.
I felt the game was mine without a doubt, if not for the horrible map layout and suckiness of Cerberus. Is it okay if i blame imbaness ? I had superior eco and map-control, still lost horrible.

summary

Oblivion > Cerberus
Harbinger > Loyalist
2x T3 arty > a bunch of shields that cost not even 1/10 of what the arties do.
This post has been edited by AncientSion: May 15 2007, 21:08 PM
#2Jean=A=Luc  May 15 2007, 22:48 PM -
Replays: 4 Game:
*raises his hand* Oh, I know, I know, Cerberus wins, right? innocent.gif
And hmmm, what to do against mass harbs...lose? But seriously, I dunno, be more versatile? Add gunships into the equation maybe.

ps: haven't watched the replay yet, no time right now, but will do it later.

pps: Oh, I just remembered, you wanted someone skilled to "take a look at this". Well, hopefully you don't mind me commenting and watching the replay later anyway. tongue.gif
This post has been edited by Jean=A=Luc: May 15 2007, 22:49 PM
#3RDon  May 15 2007, 22:58 PM -
Replays: 23 Game:
On sentry, as Cybran:

Build one TML. Scout his comm. Snipe his comm.

I just watched a replay of Peppe's, and he seriously neglected TML, so chances are he would also seriously neglect TMD.
#4MinimaDeMalis  May 15 2007, 23:35 PM -
Replays: 6 Game:
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I dont consider myself skilled, but if you want my opinion on that match:

Both players only focused on getting T3-bots out for the better part of a hour. Peppe had 1 or two TMD, Sion had none. Nearly no scouting on both parts, a TML build (maybe covered with that mobile-stealth gen ) could have ended or decided the game for both players.

You did a good job of taking the empty spawn, you practically dominated the beginning with alot of T1-Mexes and early T2-Mexes. Peppe was locked out from most of the map and did the right thing in that situation : build some defenses and upgrade ASAP. The next 15 minutes IMHO were the ones that cost you the game - there were lots of opporturnities to cripple or defeat him.
*) TML on the right side would`ve allowed you to take out most of his eco (and I believe even his sole T3-Fab was out of TMD Range)
*) Attacking from both sides - you did this a couple of times but let a group of T3-Bots stop. Did you actually watched his reaction? if you attacked right, he pulled everything he had to the right side. Similar for attacking from left. In both cases your Bots couldve walked in from the practically open other side and crippled his eco.

After that timespan he had enough resources, defenses (except TMD) and bots so that an bot-attack from your side simply had to be in vast superior numbers. Harbingers just happen to be the best T3-Bots. The TML-attack would`ve still been a valid option (though harder to pull of as he was gaining ground again and so it wouldve been more dangerous for your engineers).

What now follows annoyed me the most: he build a couple mobile T3-Arty and attacked your shields, instead of putting 1 or 2 T2/T3 Artys on your own below the shield and fight back you did nothing at all to counter them. Not that they did alot of damage, but sure you dont want them to become a threat?

Cant blame you for trying to break through with a monkeylord, but having no air-defense close is a mistake. And scouting wouldve revealed he had an armada of Gunships.

After the retaliation the match was in his favor - I dont thing your eco catched up to Peppe`s levels again. He also had a sizeable unit-advantage and likely couldve crushed your left base with his sACU`s alone - his Turret spam wasnt necessary IMHO.

Thats what I remember in the match. In short:
*) Lack of scouting
*) No T2/T3 mobile Arty to hurt his defenses (until way to late in the game)
*) Not even an attempt on trying something else than spamming bots (again until way to late in the game)
*) Lack of scouting
This post has been edited by MinimaDeMalis: May 15 2007, 23:45 PM
#5AncientSion  May 16 2007, 15:34 PM -
Replays: 16 Game:
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QUOTE(MinimaDeMalis @ May 16 2007, 01:35 AM) *

I dont consider myself skilled, but if you want my opinion on that match:,



Okay, that was probably a bit arrogant from my point. Screw the "skilled", i was mainly looking for serious advises.

QUOTE(MinimaDeMalis @ May 16 2007, 01:35 AM) *

Both players only focused on getting T3-bots out for the better part of a hour. Peppe had 1 or two TMD, Sion had none. Nearly no scouting on both parts, a TML build (maybe covered with that mobile-stealth gen ) could have ended or decided the game for both players.

Okay, here is what i think. T3 bots are a must. Not doing them will kill you, regardless of what else you decide to do. In addition, i got SCUs quite a lot earlier than he did.

QUOTE(MinimaDeMalis @ May 16 2007, 01:35 AM) *

You did a good job of taking the empty spawn, you practically dominated the beginning with alot of T1-Mexes and early T2-Mexes. Peppe was locked out from most of the map and did the right thing in that situation : build some defenses and upgrade ASAP. The next 15 minutes IMHO were the ones that cost you the game - there were lots of opporturnities to cripple or defeat him.
*) TML on the right side would`ve allowed you to take out most of his eco (and I believe even his sole T3-Fab was out of TMD Range)
*) Attacking from both sides - you did this a couple of times but let a group of T3-Bots stop. Did you actually watched his reaction? if you attacked right, he pulled everything he had to the right side. Similar for attacking from left. In both cases your Bots couldve walked in from the practically open other side and crippled his eco.

TML: I noticed at least some TMDs and since Aeon TMDs distracts every missile i didnt even consider getting TML.
Attacking: Yes, i noticed that when i watched the replay. I agree with you.

QUOTE(MinimaDeMalis @ May 16 2007, 01:35 AM) *

After that timespan he had enough resources, defenses (except TMD) and bots so that an bot-attack from your side simply had to be in vast superior numbers. Harbingers just happen to be the best T3-Bots. The TML-attack would`ve still been a valid option (though harder to pull of as he was gaining ground again and so it wouldve been more dangerous for your engineers).


QUOTE(MinimaDeMalis @ May 16 2007, 01:35 AM) *

What now follows annoyed me the most: he build a couple mobile T3-Arty and attacked your shields, instead of putting 1 or 2 T2/T3 Artys on your own below the shield and fight back you did nothing at all to counter them. Not that they did alot of damage, but sure you dont want them to become a threat?

Well guess you are right. I dont see much of a threat in mobile arty, considering shieldspam is far more effective. But yes, getting 2 t2 stationary arties would have been smarter, agreed, too.


QUOTE(MinimaDeMalis @ May 16 2007, 01:35 AM) *

Cant blame you for trying to break through with a monkeylord, but having no air-defense close is a mistake. And scouting wouldve revealed he had an armada of Gunships.

Agreed again. I noticed he had gunships earlier, but i had no idea he was massing them, didnt scout good enough. However, at least i mixed in some bangers biggrin.gif Anyways, point taken.




Thanks for your comments.
However, i think what did hurt me the most was the inability of cerberus to fight oblivions. See, i had like 20 Cerberus and they werent able to stop him from setting up PD with 5-6 SCUs. Thats just wrong. If factions would be switched, im certain 20 Oblivion would definitly stop anyone from trying to set up offensive T2 PDs, just because of their pure damage output.
That was possing me off:
having 5 shields and loads of cerberus and still, the enemy able to creep forward.
Then, i believe those 2 T3 arties were a problem as well. They drained my eco so much, i believe getting new SCUs would have been smarter and more effective.

pfffff
#6MinimaDeMalis  May 16 2007, 18:29 PM -
Replays: 6 Game:
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QUOTE(AncientSion @ May 16 2007, 17:34 PM) *
Okay, here is what i think. T3 bots are a must. Not doing them will kill you, regardless of what else you decide to do. In addition, i got SCUs quite a lot earlier than he did.
Sure, but I meant you werent trying anything else for a long time. Search for weaknesses, try air, etc. But without bots youre dead for sure.
QUOTE(AncientSion @ May 16 2007, 17:34 PM) *
TML: I noticed at least some TMDs and since Aeon TMDs distracts every missile i didnt even consider getting TML.
The key argument here is that Aeon TMD has an awfully small radius where its effective (ie. can shoot down missiles). Aoen players need alot of them to cover the perimeter of their base at least.
QUOTE(AncientSion @ May 16 2007, 17:34 PM) *
Well guess you are right. I dont see much of a threat in mobile arty, considering shieldspam is far more effective. But yes, getting 2 t2 stationary arties would have been smarter, agreed, too.
In small numbers they dont hurt, but they can get dangerous fast. Suppose Peppe would build a T2-PD just in reach to hit your shield (the ground inside not the generator) and bring it down, the T3-M-Arty would bring kill the generator in a single shot. Rinse and repeat. Additionaly you should always place a couple of them in the frontline and pull them back when attacked. That way they take care of Engies trying to build T2-PD, and the constant damage to the opponents army will eventually have him pull back or attack (and run in your hopefully existing defenses). Can you tell I like T3-M-Arty? wink.gif
QUOTE(AncientSion @ May 16 2007, 17:34 PM) *
However, i think what did hurt me the most was the inability of cerberus to fight oblivions. See, i had like 20 Cerberus and they werent able to stop him from setting up PD with 5-6 SCUs. Thats just wrong. If factions would be switched, im certain 20 Oblivion would definitly stop anyone from trying to set up offensive T2 PDs, just because of their pure damage output.
Likely, yes. But AFAIR he also had a impressive amount of stationary T2-Arty which helped.
QUOTE(AncientSion @ May 16 2007, 17:34 PM) *
Then, i believe those 2 T3 arties were a problem as well. They drained my eco so much, i believe getting new SCUs would have been smarter and more effective.
Wouldve been hard to turn around in either case. He had masses of Units while you had only a couple. You did blow up quite a few buildings with the first one though, so it wasnt quite useless.

The patch should make things interesting for you though smile.gif
This post has been edited by MinimaDeMalis: May 16 2007, 18:31 PM
#7dj_relentless  May 16 2007, 21:22 PM -
Replays: 1 Game:
Yea its kinda annoying that you need to constantly check the ground slope when placing the cerberus and often you just can't place them because its a waste.
#8T2A`  May 19 2007, 09:52 AM -
Replays: 3 Game:
I didn't watch it but I suppose that if you got SCUs out first then you could use at least some of them as fighting units. Add a weapon and shield upgrade instead of RAS and a single SCU will probably take out a lot of the Harbs - enough to give your Loyalists and economy an edge, perhaps.
#9wtfwillis  May 19 2007, 22:56 PM -
Replays: 6 Game:
QUOTE(dj_relentless @ May 16 2007, 21:22 PM) *

Yea its kinda annoying that you need to constantly check the ground slope when placing the cerberus and often you just can't place them because its a waste.


This is true. They should implement some kind of placement graphic where they display where a PD can and cannot hit. Draw the range circle with undefendable areas in red, and maybe make line-of-sight weapons fire at line-of-sight targets.
#10AncientSion  May 20 2007, 08:21 AM -
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QUOTE(wtfwillis @ May 20 2007, 00:56 AM) *

This is true. They should implement some kind of placement graphic where they display where a PD can and cannot hit. Draw the range circle with undefendable areas in red, and maybe make line-of-sight weapons fire at line-of-sight targets.


Just wait for the patch, i heard of a nifty feature. Its not exactly what you are suggesting, but i think it will help. However, even if you have a feature like that: If the map has lots of heights you will still be at an disadvantage. Sure, you know you cant build your Cerb here and there, but that still doesnt offer a counter to the enemies T2 PD. They either need to implement a slightly weaker T2 PD, which is not distrupted by may layout, or they need to seriously fix the Cerberus. Otherwise Cybran will have no adequate T2 pd on certain maps.
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