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Supreme Commander

[3217]TNT vs DeadLegion

#31FFAxDeadLegion  Feb 27 2007, 21:33 PM -
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QUOTE(wtfwillis @ Feb 27 2007, 03:20 PM) *

However, I don't think this replay shows Aeon defenses as being OP, it just shows what you're not supposed to do against a shielded defense like that. In all honesty, it took a long time to build a strong defense against ground units, while neglecting air defense. Had air defense been any kind of priority, the land defense would not have been as strong.

I'm going to make a quick comment on this. While you might think Aeon defenses are not OP, if cybran or UEF faction tried to setup a defense like that, my attack would have easily steamrolled right through it, aeon is the only faction with defensive turrets that utterly destroy Siege bots. So, its not nessisarly the case that Aeon defenses are overpowered, but they are indeed many fold stronger than anything the UEF or Cybran can put together. (Triad stop siege bots? LOL)

QUOTE

TNT could have been taken out a number of ways before he could turtle real hard: T3 gunships, T3 bombers (if early enough), T2 tac missiles from behind, T3 mob arty from behind his base, 2-3 SCUs dropped into his base, etc.

I generally agree, the point is though - I had him beat to the point that I could chose the method I wanted to kill him. I had him turtled into a very tight space where producing a significant t3 production would be difficult, and I restricted him to his first 4 starting mexes. I decided, intentionally, to try the most difficult method. I definatly recommend other people to try to circimvent such a defense, but the replay also shows what manner of ground assault that type of aeon defense needs in order to collapse it.

#32timoth  Feb 27 2007, 21:51 PM -
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Awesome watching this game. The fighting looked amazing when you scroll right down.

Really nice to see the shields and fatboys in action

Thanks for showing it to us

#33AncientSion  Feb 27 2007, 22:05 PM -
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QUOTE(FFAxDeadLegion @ Feb 27 2007, 10:33 PM) *

I'm going to make a quick comment on this. While you might think Aeon defenses are not OP, if cybran or UEF faction tried to setup a defense like that, my attack would have easily steamrolled right through it, aeon is the only faction with defensive turrets that utterly destroy Siege bots. So, its not nessisarly the case that Aeon defenses are overpowered, but they are indeed many fold stronger than anything the UEF or Cybran can put together. (Triad stop siege bots? LOL)



Comparing Triads is pretty pointless though. We all know how broken they are. Most skilled people will even prefer a single UEF t1 PD instead of getting a Triad. Better prepare T1 pd or T2 pd without UEF.
I think wolfman is right. Its definitly not that Aeon PD is overpowered. Both cybran T1 and T2 PD is a whole lot better then aeon T1 and T2 PD. While they may have the same accuracy and dps, alone the rate of fire makes the cybran T1 pd superior to the aeon T1 pd. I rather have a gun with 10 shots a 50 dmg ea .5 seconds than a gun with 5 shots a 100 dmg ea .5 seconds, basicly because the rate of fire will introduce a massive waste of firepower.

Same goes for Cerberus vs Oblivion. Cerberus is just plain better. The only reason why Oblivions were good in this replay is the fact they you had large streams of units approaching, so the Oblivions had guaranteed hits, even though their shots were not aiming, the place they shot was basicly covered with a least one+ unit all the time.

http://147.28.0.58/supcom/unit_details/r3217/urb2301
http://147.28.0.58/supcom/unit_details/r3217/uab2301

Even though the Oblivion has almost 3 times the dps, it will almost ***never*** reach its statisticly output.
In addition, it has less HP and costs more than the Cerberus.
Maybe the problem lies in the spamming of shields, i dont know.

Oblivion has its uses, but only on maps without corners etc. Like that new small arctic 1vs1. If it can fire a straight line it will probably hit, but thats about it. I personally would prefer a Cerberus over a Oblivion anytime, even on that optimal map i just mentioned.

All in all, you should probably have given movement/patrol orders to your siege bots, that way hopefully avoiding the Oblivions fire.
The easiest way to confirm the ineffiency of Oblivions in the kill count. I dont feel like watching the rep once again even at +10 speed, but im pretty much sure that each single T1 PD had a whole lot more kills than the Oblivions.

On a small site note, T1 PD has a raw dps which is only 50 % of what the Oblivion reads. BUT, and thats important, the T1 PD has almost always guaranteed hits even against fast targets. To be exact, when im turtling im always largely overbuilding T1 pd compared to T2 pd, probably at 3:1 rate.

Aeon/Uef/Cybran T1 PD >>>> Aeon T2 PD.
Cybran T2 PD >>>> Aeon T2 PD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UEF T2 PD.

my opinion.
Feel free to comment ! smile.gif

#34wtfwillis  Feb 27 2007, 22:21 PM -
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QUOTE(FFAxDeadLegion @ Feb 27 2007, 09:33 PM) *

I generally agree, the point is though - I had him beat to the point that I could chose the method I wanted to kill him. I had him turtled into a very tight space where producing a significant t3 production would be difficult, and I restricted him to his first 4 starting mexes. I decided, intentionally, to try the most difficult method. I definatly recommend other people to try to circimvent such a defense, but the replay also shows what manner of ground assault that type of aeon defense needs in order to collapse it.


Yes I see. It would be interesting to see what microing triads would do - and if there is some way to counter their shortcomings (I'll bet that would be T3 gunships on the frontline supporting T1 PD and T2 arty).

You guys should stage a game where the one turtling hard is UEF, and see how long it takes to break into the defenses (ie. swap the Aeon for UEF and turtle vs UEF attack, just to keep a few variables as possible).
#35FFAxDeadLegion  Feb 27 2007, 23:52 PM -
Replays: 3 Game:
QUOTE(AncientSion @ Feb 27 2007, 04:05 PM) *


Oblivion has its uses, but only on maps without corners etc. Like that new small arctic 1vs1. If it can fire a straight line it will probably hit, but thats about it. I personally would prefer a Cerberus over a Oblivion anytime, even on that optimal map i just mentioned.


I like the cerberus definatly, but I dont think the Cerberus would withstand 50+ t3 siege bots, not to mention the cybran shields are significantly weaker.

The cerberus is very good at taking out masses of t2 and t1 units because it doesnt waste firepower, the oblivion on the other hand expends alot of firepower in one shot which causes a poor side effect, including a significant loss in real DPS because of overkill and a potentially worse side effect: the destruction of the wreck of the unit you killed. The other advantage the Oblivion has is that it basically prevents the building of t2 pd within its range. It two shots any t2 pd being constructed and will prevent engineers from even constructing PD in its range, and even a little farther than its range. Also remember in most games you are only playing against t1 and t2 units and usually a game wont get deep into t2. At that the cerberus excells and the oblivion sucks.

Also it would be hard to compare the kill counts of the t1 pd because the T1 pd were consistantly getting destroyed and later rebuilt mainly because they were on the outer wall of defenses only protected by one layer of shield where the t2 pd was protected by 2 or more layers of heavy t2 aeon shielding.

You also have to remember the oblivion has splash damage, which makes them more and more effective with numbers potentionally taking out small groups of enemies at a time instead of a single target.

The main crutch for cybran though is definatly their paper weak shields, and would be the main contributing factor to the fact that under a similar assault the cybran defense would crumble. However defense is not something cybran seems to be designed around doing, cybran seems to be the aggressive faction (or wannabe aggressive) where its strength lies in the mantis. If I was playing a cybran player I even doubt that the shields would have stopped my 7 arty from killing his two, or even cybrans arty actually landing a hit on my arty before my arty can take a cybran arty out. (cybran arty is awefully inaccurate).

We could of course field test all of this but I think the aeon shields are the strongest contributing factor to that hard Aeon outer shell.
This post has been edited by FFAxDeadLegion: Feb 27 2007, 23:58 PM
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